Timing it

[Dux]

Something I've been thinking about recently...We know in Dragonsdawn and Dragonseye the riders do not know about the ability of dragons to travel between through time. By Moreta's time they know how to, but the knowledge of the ability is supposedly limited to Golds and Bronzes. By the 9th Pass, the knowledge is lost.

How was it lost?

The Healer Hall had records of the ability supposedly being "bred" into the dragons. Apparently it was used by others who found out about it accidently - so what happened?

I have my own theory, but wanted to see what others thought before I posted it.

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

I think that after Moreta died from exhausting herself and Holth, timing it so much on her last ride, everyone was scared off of timing it anymore. First it was probably still known but not spoken of, and eventually all knowledge of it was forgotten.

[woollymouse]

It must be pointed out that even in Moreta's time the practice of timing it was kept to a minimum only Bronze and Gold riders were 'routinely told' of the ability amongst the lesser colours it was only known to those riders who found out about it independently. With there being so few riders by Lessa's time it is hardly surprising that the knowledge of timing it has been forgotten. The dragons only have short term memories on most things, whilst an ability that is not used much is forgotten over a few generations in humans.

[NeouofPern]

Well... You must remember, people forgot Queens fought Thread/flew at all!

[maiken]

Neou has a very good point. I think that all of you have good points. I had never really thought of it before...

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

I've always found it odd that they thought queens didn't fly... did they think they were *only* capable of it during mating flights? Or was it tradition built up that they weren't supposed to fly? I can't remember exactly how it goes.

Anyway... I'm getting :ot:

[Larry O-G]

I've always found it odd that they thought queens didn't fly... did they think they were *only* capable of it during mating flights? Or was it tradition built up that they weren't supposed to fly? I can't remember exactly how it goes.

Anyway... I'm getting :ot:

It was just that Jora the queen rider before Lessa was fat and afraid of hights and did not like to fly. :banghead:

[C_ris]

I think that simply people forgot. the knowledge was restricted to just gold and bronze riders in Moreta's time, but probably after morta's death, then that was restricted further to just Weyrleaders,Weyrwomen and Wingleaders, which probably then restricted to just the Weyrleaders/women and then forgotten simply threough lack of use and/or the untimely death of a WL/WW.

[TamTam]

I wouldn't be so sure that the riders in Dragonseye don't know about timing. Maybe it just doesn't come up. A few people in Dragon's Kin knew about it and that takes place in... the interval before the third pass, I think.

[Milo]

After Moreta's death they wouldnt tell any new riders, but new riders would probably discover it on accident. My theory on that is that when a new rider discovered it he'd be so freaked out that he wouldnt tell anybody. He would maybe think that something was wrong with him or his dragon. Failing that, if he DID tell somebody (aka his wingleader etc) the wingleader would already know and tell him to clam up, or his wingleader would NOT know, and not give him the time of day.

[Bamy]

this question is slightly :off topic: When did they actually discover timing was possible? the certaily dont mention it in the first or second pass. is it possible that the ability was discovered inadvertantly by a dragonrider during the second pass?

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

The earliest it was actually mentioned was in the books is the 6th Pass. I can't remember *exactly* how it went, but I think it was a weyrling who discovered he could do this, and was doing lots of timing, and he appeared much more tan and very tired. Some of the senior dragonriders noticed and kind of took him off to the side and questioned him about it. He told them and was reprimanded, and told the dangers of it. Apparantly this was already known in the higher ranks of dragonriders of the 6th Pass, but it was not passed on to any others.

So between timing might even have been known all the while amongst the Weyrleaders, but was never spoken of, and was not important to any of the other storylines so was not mentioned.

[Dux]

When when "timing it" first discovered?
My guess was sometime after the second interval. I don't remember it being mentioned in Dragonseye, but that book ends when the second pass begins.

How was it discovered? I have no idea - maybe it will be in one of Todd's future Pern books. In Moreta's time the riders of Golds and the Bronzes knew and of course one Blue rider as well (K'lon).

How was it lost? My original question. The only theory I've come up with is kind of two-fold. First, many riders died in the plague of the 6th pass - their knowledge of timing it went with them. Second, of those who survived, timing it became forbidden. As it was Moreta's exhaustion from timing that caused her death, the Weyrleaders probably wanted to make sure it could never happen again. They only way that could happen is if riders were forbidden to ever time it again. We know that the Weyr Woman of each Weyr has the power to stop any other dragon from doing anything (remember Telgar Weyrleader ordered that no one from his Weyr help with vaacine distribution, but it was the Weyr Woman's Queen that actually enforced the order. I think it's even mentioned that no lesser dragon can disobey the Queen of the Weyr.). So with that injunction in place and if the Golds and Bronzes of that time refused to give the knowledge of timing it to any new generation of riders, within a generation the knowledge would be completely gone.

The problem - how is it that it was never discovered again? C'milo may be right in thinking that anyone who stumbled onto the knowledge might have kept it to himself rather than being thought crazy...but somehow that just doesn't sound logical to me. :shakeshead:

:offtopic: As for Queens not flying, that's always baffled me too. Jora hadn't been Queen for that long (only about 30 turns at the most). The Queen before her flew didn't she? There were riders still alive that should have been able to remember. *wonders if she should reread MoP to look for details* It's like the idea that women can't be Harpers. Robinton's own mother was a MasterHarper as were, at least, a few others when he was a child. Yet Menolly is told (By Petiron no less!) that girls cannot be harpers.

[TamTam]

Your theory about the loss of timing sounds pretty good, Dux.

I still think that timing it might or might not have been discovered before the second pass. True, it's not mentioned in Dragonseye. That could mean that it hasn't been discovered yet, or it could mean that the subject simply isn't brought up.

I really believe that riders must have stumbled across timing it since the sixth pass, but I can't figure out how it was kept such a good secret. Personally, if I was one of the riders who figured it out, I'd probably be walking around with a crazy grin and thinking, "Hee hee, I know something they don't know!"

Finally, the queens not flying. :confused: Frankly, not a clue. I've never been able to figure that one out.

[AnnMarie]

Dux, Robinton's mother was a MasterSinger...not a MasterHarper. She didn't meet the requirements for that. ALL she knew was singing, not theory or composition or insturmentation or crafting insterments. And when Menolly first arrives at Harper HAll, we meet a bunch of other girls who are studying mainly singing and instermentation.

[Anareth]

Honestly, I think the whole MasterSinger versus Master Harper thing is rather bandying semantics--Merelan was a MASTER at what she did. She wasn't a Master of every aspect of the Harper craft, but she obviously had rank and authority. Not to mention that the idea of women Masters in any craft should never have been lost at all--Oldive and Robintion both should have working memory of a female Master Healer--no waffling on that, she is the head of the Hall.

In any case...one way that timing was 'lost' (if it really was; I'll get to that in a minute) at leats to the general population was that the Healer Hall was under request/orders from Leri to "lose" the records that talked about dragons' ability to time it. Presumably, with Moreta's death fresh in his mind, Capiam made doubly sure those records vanished.

Second, I don't think it really was totally lost as a skill until the late 8th Interval/early 9th Pass--ie, whenever things started going really downhill and we end up with what Benden is when Dragonflight begins. Note that Mardra and T'ton aren't particularly surprised that Lessa has traveled through time, except by how far she's come. They also, obviously, find the idea of non-flying queens absurd (though ironically, in an extreme way perhaps, Benden was inadvertently carrying out Kitti's original intent, that queens be breeders, not fighters, though she probably did NOT mean for them never to fly at all.) Given that, when the Weyrs leave to go forward, the dragon population plummets to one Weyr, and finally to one queen, few bronzes, and generally a small number of dragons, it isn't really surprising that there are fewer people to remember things like timing, and fewer people to accidentally rediscover it. The 8th Interval seems to be a period where Pern goes through the Dark Ages, and Benden Weyr wasn't an exception. I expect that there were a lot of things the Weyr forgot about dragons in general, and timing was one of them, because the riders from the 8th Pass seem to know about them.

Oh, and TamTam was right--they must know about it by the second interval, because Dragon's Kin is set late in the Interval, and the first incident involving timing happened many years earlier in the Interval, before the action of the book. So, if it hasn't been discovered in DE/RSR and just isn't mentioned, it must be discovered some time between the start of the Second Pass and the Second Interval.

[B`dgyr]

Jora was not the first dragon rider afraid of heights, either...see DD.
I think the reason that Menolly was given a chance to become a Harper is because Robinton remembered his mother's abilities. Also, let's face it, in reality, some books were written before others, and the continuity got messed up. Kind of like in comic books..e.g. DC/Marvel superhero origins.

[Dux]

Oh, and TamTam was right--they must know about it by the second interval, because Dragon's Kin is set late in the Interval, and the first incident involving timing happened many years earlier in the Interval, before the action of the book. So, if it hasn't been discovered in DE/RSR and just isn't mentioned, it must be discovered some time between the start of the Second Pass and the Second Interval.
Dragon's Kin takes place at the end of the second interval - which means just before the third pass. Approx. 240 years after DE/RSR.

[Ryuu]

Anareth, Mardra and T'ton were very much surprised by Lessa, but evidently some time passed before they could question her about it as Lessa needed time to recover.

Also, at the end of Moreta, it was clearly stated that the knowledge was going to be forbidden, and the Masters at the Harperhall were tasked with going through all records and "correcting" any references to timing.

As for when timing was discovered, Dux problably has it right...however, no actual story has been written about it. I expect Dragonsblood may touch on it since you have dragons jumping from Third Pass to Second Pass. :disguise:

[Anareth]

Dragon's Kin takes place at the end of the second interval - which means just before the third pass. Approx. 240 years after DE/RSR.

So...what's your point? Reread what I said--timing is obviously known and practiced in DK. It either isn't yet in DE/RSR or, less likely, hasn't been discovered yet. If the former is the case, as seems likely, then it must have been discovered between the start of the second pass (IE, the last page of DE/RSR) and at some point before the middle of the second internval (the flashback in DK must occur at some point in the middle of the second interval.)

And Ryuu--they're surprised at a queen they dont' know showing up out of nowhere--but they aren't surprised at the idea of time travel, at least, they don't appear to be. That she's come back 400 years is a surprise--but they're awfully accepting if they're totally unfamiliar with the idea.

As for the end of Moreta--Capiam's losing the official records. But even a blue rider discovered it by accident, and we know that dragons can time instinctively. Not to mention that queens and bronzes, at least, not KNOWING it's possible, is suicidally stupid--otherwise, you end up with someone 'discovering' it (again) and riders experimenting (again) and accidents happening--unless the knowledge of the ability was kept alive, along with the knowledge that it's dangerous and something that ought to be reserved for emergency situations only.

[Brenda]

I don't think dragons do time instinctively. They have to be given specific visual time coordinates. Most visual coordinates would not be time-specific. Unless you want to go somewhere and picture it at a certain time, as Lessa did on her first trip to Ruatha, you will default to the same time - not even allowing for time zones. If you go from the west coast to the east coast it will be much later there.

I think maybe they didn't think that golds couldn't fly, but that they shouldn't - or mustn't. When there has only been one queen for generations, she must be protected. Every time she would fly would be one more chance of getting lost between, or of her rider falling to her death, causing the dragon to suicide. The one dragon critical to survival of the species must not be risked.

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

That sounds logical about the golds and flying, Brenda. Its not like Ramoth was the *only* queen left, but with an extremely low number, they'd want to take every precaution possible to protect them.