Boron or carbon based?

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

I saw on another forum someone saying that indigenous Pernese life was not boron based, but just used boron as a substitute for calcium, something along those lines. Anyway, I wasn't a member there, so I couldn't inquire about it. Where does it say that pernese life is Carbon-based? I'd always thought it was a boron-crystaline structure.

[NeouofPern]

It is boron, I thought. Because the fire lizards were boron... *scratches head*

[Bertrand]

I can't recall completely but try the short story "The P.E.R.N Survey" in The Chronicles of Pern.

[C_ris]

i think that Boron is the substiute for Carbon, rather than boron-based.

[Bamy]

almost positive it is boron- silicate based.

[Anareth]

Boron seems to replace calcium, not carbon, in the dragons' structure.

If the forum was Pernalliance.com <puts on Mod hat> you can post there as a guest. It's not a locked forum (except the private member-only area.)

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

It was from a Meeting of Minds forun. I can't seem to get on to the Pernalliance site :(

[ChrisG]

:note: From DragonsDawn
"I've never rushed a horse," Sean said, "and I'm not about to start with my dragon. However, at the rate they're growing, and if we can be sure that their skeletal structure--it's boron-silicate, you know, which is tougher than our calcareous material--is developing properly, I think they'll be capable of manned flight as scheduled." Sean grinned.

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

Thank you very much ChrisG, you sure are great with those quotes :ok:

[Ryuu]

I think it's in the introductions of the DRoP that it mentions Thread attacks Carbon based organics. A specific mention during the First Fall at Landing in Dragondrums also talks about how Thread was attacking carbon-based plastics, but concrete and silcon-based plastic was impervious to the organism.

The boron-silcate in the natives is simply a substitute for calcium in their bones.

Also, since their blood is green, there's been some debate on the oxygen-carrying element is in the native's blood. Interviews with Anne had mentioned vanadium and copper on various occassions as the substitute for iron in their hemoglobin. I remember one comment from Anne where she pointed out that Terran Hermit crabs had vanadium-based blood, but other people mentioned that they heard her say that it was copper-based (like Spock).

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

I reread all the introductions, and it says that thread devours anything organic, it wasn't specific on whether it was only carbon based organics or not. But I think you have a point on those plastics.

I'm not too familiar with the cellular level of biology, so I'm a bit confused. The skeleton and blood has been explained, but what about muscles? What makes them silver instead of red? I'd always thought before that their entire system was boron silicate based and that explained the color, but I guess its something else.

[Ryuu]

I'm not too familiar with the cellular level of biology, so I'm a bit confused. The skeleton and blood has been explained, but what about muscles? What makes them silver instead of red? I'd always thought before that their entire system was boron silicate based and that explained the color, but I guess its something else.actually, our muscles are white (pink if you count the blood). (If you refer to beef--that's actually a red dye introduced to make the meat look red...for the same reason margerine is colored yellow everywhere outside Wisconsin...because people wouldn't buy it otherwise) ;)

With the natives' blood being green, their exposed muscles would appear silver to our eyes (white with just a hint of green/blue) :ouch:

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

Ah ok, my lack of biology knowledge shows up once again :D Actually, now that I think about it, I know you're right, because when I went hunting and were cutting up the meat, the muscles and tendons were white where no blood vessels were.

[Lady Arwyn]

I have killed and cut my own meat (elk), the meat is quite definately red, no dye. I have also seen plenty of cattle freshly killed and bled, also very red meat.

Now, they do sometimes add preservatives to keep the red color brighter for longer, and occasionally red dye is added to enhance the color of a poor cut, but meat is very definately *naturally* red.

Yes, tendons, cartilege (sp?) and bone are white, but they are a different structure entirely.

[Anareth]

actually, our muscles are white (pink if you count the blood). (If you refer to beef--that's actually a red dye introduced to make the meat look red...for the same reason margerine is colored yellow everywhere outside Wisconsin...because people wouldn't buy it otherwise)

:eek: We need BPOI's "***" smilie for this one...are you SERIOUS? Okay, like LadyA said--meat is red. I am a culinary student and I can tell you for absolute fact there is no dye-injection involved in beef, etc. Pork, veal and chicken are pink, lamb, beef, ostrich, are red-red (beef's proper color is described as cherry-red--if it arrives any other color, it's spoiled, reject the shipment.) The only thing you might be thinking of is salmon, which sometimes has color added to make it pinker (the natural pink is related to their diet and some salmon are naturally paler than others.) Every deer I've ever seen butchered has red meat. I even asked my mother, who happens to be on-line, what human muscle looks like--if it's oxygenated, it's red (med-school cadavers have a grayish cast because they are dye-injected and preserved.) If you are getting any beef that's been dyed, run, do not walk, to another butcher. Gray or brown coloring that it's covering up means in culinary terms "reject the shipment, it's gone off." That or you are buying beef that's been processed well beyond butchering and packaging and is no longer properly considered a cut of meat but a pre-cooked product (like lunch meats, etc.)

The only time meat will be gray if it hasn't been cooked is if it's been koshered (salted to drain out blood) or it's gone off. Fresh meat is always red (or in the case of pale flesh, pink--uncooked chicken breast, for example, should be very pink, especially close to the bone.) If it's another color, it is old and at best would taste awful, at worse, is dangerous to eat.

[Ryuu]

I'm not certain about elk, but in cattle, beef is white if you properly drain the blood. This is done in the beef industry because of blood-borne illnesses. They then inject dye into the carcase before cutting it up.

*Kosher*--it's not just the Law...it's a good idea ;)

As I mentioned, it will look pink with blood still present. Cutting into the meat will of course allow the blood to seep out and cover the meat.

[Ryuu]

just saw Anareth's reply...

well, looks like everyone's going to have to research on this .... :evil:

[Anareth]

just saw Anareth's reply...

well, looks like everyone's going to have to research on this .... :evil:

Will you take the word of Le Cordon Bleu chefs? Because I will ask my instructors, but I already know they're going to look at me like I'm nuts for asking.

The only way to drain all blood from a carcass is to salt the living .... out of it. You will then lose the texture, and you cannot replace that texture by injecting anything. Take it from someone who has handled an awful lot of raw meat, fresh and purchased. It also does not turn meat white. It turns it a grayish-brown color (take a steak, if you're willing to waste one, and put it in a kosher salt.) It's tough, it's unappetizing, and it's unnecessary from a health standpoint. You are vastly more likely to get sick from offal that makes contact with the EXTERIOR of the beef. That is how you catch E. coli--it's a SURFACE-borne bug. That's why hamburger needs to be cooked through while twenty seconds to a side on a high-heat grill renders a steak safe to eat, even if the center is still technically raw. The grinding carries the contaminant into the beef. Nor can you get BSE/CJD from blood, as far as anyone knows--you have to consume part of the nervous system, again making ground beef the bigger risk.

When slaughtered, cattle are bled from the neck, which will remove some blood--but there is blood still in the meat. It is not removed from the muscles (in fact I can show you the residue left when you poach veal for a blanquette where the remaining blood cooks out and coagulates in the water.) And even the blood that's been drained off is frequently saved and sold--where do you think blood sausage comes from? Pork blood. Cow blood. That does require a preservative to prevent coagulation, but people buying beef blood aren't just weird vampire fanatics.

And meat is not red because it gets covered in blood when you cut it. It's red because ALL THOSE FIBERS have blood in them. There are arterioles and capilaries all through the meat. The fluids in the meat can be lost in cooking, but through tightening of the fibers it can be reclaimed when you rest the meat before slicing.

If you've just seen pictures of carcasses hanging--they are not white. Most of what you are seeing is fat, residual skin, and the stuff in the limbs are tendons and ligaments and cartilage, which are culinarily useless except to leach out the gelatine they contain to use for stocks, aspics, etc. Cut up a large mammal some time if you don't believe me.

Unless you're buying your meat from an ultraorthodox Jewish butcher, it's going to have blood in it.

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

So if meat is red because of blood running all through the fibers of the muscle, wouldn't that make dragon muscles look green from their ichor?

[palmedfire]

Theoreticly, yes.

[Brenda]

Where does it even say that they look silver?

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

Taken from the Dragon descriptions thread -

Smooth, suede-like skin that comes in five colors (these never change, with the sole exception of Ruth, the only white dragon ever successfully Hatched and Impressed): gold, bronze, brown, blue, and green, where golds and greens are female and bronzes, browns, and blues are male (think "g" for girl and "b" for boy)
Multi-facted eyes that change color according to mood -- these are as follows:[/b]
-Content/Neutral: Blue/Green
-Love: Purple
-Anger/Battle: Orange
-Lust/Hunger: Red
-Alarm: Yellow
-Fear: White
-Sadness/Mourning: Gray
Three pairs of eyelids: one transparent pair, one translucent pair, and one opaque pair
Pentadactyl (five-toed) forepaws that can act as hands
Three-toed hindpaws
Two stomaches
Headknobs instead of ears
Sizes that range as follows (and dragons are measured in [b]feet, not meters, as per the DLG -- this is a correction Anne has specifically made.), with wingspans equal to one and two thirds the total length of the dragon:
-Gold: 38-42 feet in length with a wingspan of 63-70 feet
-Bronze: 35-38 feet in length with a wingspan of 58-63 feet
-Brown: 30-35 feet in length with a wingspan of 50-58 feet
-Blue: 25-30 feet in length with a wingspan of 42-50 feet
-Green: 20-25 feet in length with a wingspan of 33-42 feet
Green, copper-based blood known as ichor
Silver muscle
Six limbs: two short, arm-like forelegs, two hind legs, and two wings (which makes for an awkward stance on the ground)


I think there was also mention of dragons having silver muscle in Moreta, when she was mending a threadscored dragon.

[Anareth]

IIRC (and I'm at school and can't check) in Moreta, dragon muscle is described as greyish-green, which I suppose could be considered silverish in some light.

And I asked my chef instructor about coloring and dying meats. I was right, of course. That red stuff you see leaking out when you cook is blood. They 'drain' the major blood vessels, but even kosher butchers cannot and do not remove all blood. (Hence koshering at home with salt to remove the last of it.)

[Aurelia]

all pernese beasts need boron. that's different from terran life. the blood flowing thru draconic veins is mostly boron.

[Kath]

all pernese beasts need boron. that's different from terran life. the blood flowing thru draconic veins is mostly boron.


No, it's mostly water.

For the last time, Boron does NOT replace carbon in draconic biology. If you have any doubts, ask a chemist. It's pretty hard to make any kind of organic molecules without carbon as a basis.

As stated in DD and the DLG, Boron/Silicates take over the role of calcium in the skeletal structures of pernese animals. They do not have boron blood any more than ours is made of calcium - though if pernese animals had a mammalian analogue, their milk would likely be chock full of it.

The blood issue is *only* an issue because Anne has stated that oxygen is carried by green ichor rather than red, terran-style blood. The red colour of blood comes from haemoglobin, which carries oxygen from our lungs to wherever else its needed, and carries CO2 back to the lungs again. You don't need haemoglobin in dragon ichor, but you do need another molecule which acts in the same way. Transition metal chemistry 101 suggests that copper or vanadium are likely candidates for a component in the appropriate fictional molecule, much the same way as iron acts in haemoglobin - you get some lovely green colours with chemicals like these.

So, the blood and bones differ, but the bulk of the mass of the animal will be made from carbon-based long-chain molecules. Think of sugars and fats, think of proteins. All are carbon-based molecules. There is no evidence to suggest that pernese lifeforms would be any different, and plenty of evidence that they'll be the same. Just think of what's actually available in terms of raw elements - the Pernese solar system will differ very little from ours in that respect. Okay, the EXACT CHEMICAL MAKEUP of draconic proteins would not be the same as ours - not if you want to make a triple-helix DNA structure - but the basic elements will be similar enough.

So, while herdbeasts can be easily gengineered to adapt to the boron/silicate rich Pernese flora - which will still be carbon based cellulose, or cellulose substitute - it's less likely that a complex animal (e.g. packtail, tunnelsnakes) would be edible by creatures higher up the foodchain, i.e. Man. The fact that they are suggests that the proteins and molecules involved in their genetic makeup are in fact close enough to those we have on Terra that the colonists can survive consuming them.

In summary:

Dragons are carbon based animals, as is everything else on Pern.
Boron/Silicates are important in the bone structure of the aboriginal creatures
Haemoglobin is replaced by a copper/vanadium based molecule, leading to green ichor rather than red blood.

Thread happily consumes the lot.

[Aurelia]

No, it's mostly water.

For the last time, Boron does NOT replace carbon in draconic biology. If you have any doubts, ask a chemist. It's pretty hard to make any kind of organic molecules without carbon as a basis.

As stated in DD and the DLG, Boron/Silicates take over the role of calcium in the skeletal structures of pernese animals. They do not have boron blood any more than ours is made of calcium - though if pernese animals had a mammalian analogue, their milk would likely be chock full of it.

The blood issue is *only* an issue because Anne has stated that oxygen is carried by green ichor rather than red, terran-style blood. The red colour of blood comes from haemoglobin, which carries oxygen from our lungs to wherever else its needed, and carries CO2 back to the lungs again. You don't need haemoglobin in dragon ichor, but you do need another molecule which acts in the same way. Transition metal chemistry 101 suggests that copper or vanadium are likely candidates for a component in the appropriate fictional molecule, much the same way as iron acts in haemoglobin - you get some lovely green colours with chemicals like these.

So, the blood and bones differ, but the bulk of the mass of the animal will be made from carbon-based long-chain molecules. Think of sugars and fats, think of proteins. All are carbon-based molecules. There is no evidence to suggest that pernese lifeforms would be any different, and plenty of evidence that they'll be the same. Just think of what's actually available in terms of raw elements - the Pernese solar system will differ very little from ours in that respect. Okay, the EXACT CHEMICAL MAKEUP of draconic proteins would not be the same as ours - not if you want to make a triple-helix DNA structure - but the basic elements will be similar enough.

So, while herdbeasts can be easily gengineered to adapt to the boron/silicate rich Pernese flora - which will still be carbon based cellulose, or cellulose substitute - it's less likely that a complex animal (e.g. packtail, tunnelsnakes) would be edible by creatures higher up the foodchain, i.e. Man. The fact that they are suggests that the proteins and molecules involved in their genetic makeup are in fact close enough to those we have on Terra that the colonists can survive consuming them.

In summary:

Dragons are carbon based animals, as is everything else on Pern.
Boron/Silicates are important in the bone structure of the aboriginal creatures
Haemoglobin is replaced by a copper/vanadium based molecule, leading to green ichor rather than red blood.

Thread happily consumes the lot.

good point!:blush:

[Brenda]

Thread happily consumes the lot. :laugh:

[Aurelia]

After looking at DLG again, they said that Kitti put boron/minerals into the Pernese beasts so dragons could get it by eating...or something like that

[Kath]

The imported lifestock were adjusted to cope with the high boron contents of the local flora. The dragons can either get their supplies of these minerals by consuming natural species such as wherries, or by eating adapted species such as the pernese herdbeasts.

Although that begs the question - if the dragons get the extra minerals from eating herdbeasts, how do humans cope with the same excess minerals? It's not like there's separate breeds for human and draconic consumption...

[Aurelia]

Maybe somehow the humans genetically got used to boron/minerals...

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

Good point, Kath... I'm no chemist or anything so I'm not sure how it works, but WOULD the excess boron have any lasting effects on humans? Or maybe they were adapted a bit as well to deal with it? :shrug:

[Aurelia]

Would Kitti have genetically done something to humans to make them adjust to boron? I know it's improbable, but I don't know what else...On Earth, does boron have a negative effect on humans?

[koipond]

does boron have a negative effect on humans

yes.
here (http://www.nccnsw.org.au/member/tec/projects/tcye/tox/Boroncompounds.html) is an article about boron poisoning
and one (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2848002&dopt=Abstract) about cows that got sick after boron exposure.

chances are the engineering that was done to Terran critters had the boron deposited into their bones. dragons eat the whole animal, bones included and get their boron. people on the other hand, do not eat bones. their exposure would be limited.

though one has to wonder about soups, geletin and such made from boiling bones. perhaps the legion of seamingly 'dull' drudges are people affected either pre- or post-natally by boron. like the Romans with lead.

[Aurelia]

Maybe Pernese bovines naturally had boron in their systems already....................

[Lady Arwyn]

There were no natural Pernese bovines, only an extinct species found in Survey P.E.R.N.

[Aurelia]

Then how did Kitti Ping get boron into the bovines/ovines? Was it in wherries/tunnel snakes????????

[Lady Arwyn]

The plant life on Pern is also heavy in boron, when the Earth animals ate the boron-bearing plants they got the boron.

[Monkeysrule]

Maybe, before being loaded onto the ships, both humans and animals had to undergo a treatment/injection/whatever to adapt them to pernese life?

[Lady Arwyn]

Most of the animals were transported as embryos, with just enough live adult animals and "artificial wombs" to gestate the unborn stock. Once they reached Pern Kitti Ping altered the embryos for adaptation to Pernese conditions. The adaptations specifically mentioned in the book stated that the boron would pass through their systems unabsorbed. Dragons could get this boron through eating the entire animal, intestines and all.

The "host" animal parents had to eat imported feed/crops for a while, since they were not altered. I think also the human crops (wheat, etc) were altered to exclude the boron from the edible parts.


The technonolgy the settlers brought with them, only way to alter humans was to do it with embryos. It was mentioned that there had been alterations done to humans int he past, but that it was now completely unacceptable to do so again. Also, the Pernese only did "natural" reproduction for humans, no opporotunities arose for any alterations to be made.

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

Ah right, I remember that. They mentioned something about there being protest to alterations in humans to include gills and webbed digits to live underwater. They said it wasn't that much change as humans have gills in the fetus stage, but there had been vehement objections anyway, to keep the human race pure and unaltered.

[Aurelia]

There is a passage in DLG on boron/Pern, but I don't have it on hand.

[Brenda]

Maybe Pernese bovines naturally had boron in their systems already....................
There were no natural Pernese bovines, only an extinct species found in Survey P.E.R.N.
Then how did Kitti Ping get boron into the bovines/ovines? Was it in wherries/tunnel snakes???????? The bovines and ovines referred to are the animals that the colonists brought with them - Terran stock, or similar (possibly from other colonies).

[Kath]

Here's some nice conflicting statements from the DLG on this topic:

Chapter 4: "The dragons would need a certain amount of boron to remain healthy, just as humans need calcium for their skeletal systems. Fortunately, an earlier program of Kitti's allowed for this need: She had introduced into the colonists' carbon-based animals the ability to metabolize trace elements of boron -which they ingested as part of their diet on Pern- into muscle tissue, rather than excreting it. Thus the dragons would be able to fill their boron requirement from a diet of animal meat"

....and....

from chapter 2:" Packaged organisms that would react symbiotically with the local bacteria were introduced to the soil to make native grasses palatable to the imported animals. The concentrations of boron, rendered inactive, simply passed through their digestive systems."

There. It officially makes NO sense at all. Time to throw in the towel on this one!

[Aurelia]

I agree! Draconic anatomy/bodily composition will have to remain in the air....

[Aurelia]

" Dragons have boron-based blood which determines their color as follows:
Gold – queen, female, the only breeding dragons, only dragons ridden by women
Bronze – male, the ‘leaders’, usually mate with queens
Brown – male, slightly smaller than bronze, may mate with greens
Green – female, cannot breed due to chewing firestone
Blue – male, may mate with greens"

from http://www.epinions.com/content_4100432004

This also answers the question about boron adaption from Terra:

"Endoskeleton: Dragons are a boron based life form. While humans are carbon based, boron helps dragons to maintain a stronger skeletal system than humans. Earth animals were genetically altered to ingest boron from native plants and make it part of their muscles structure, specifically for a dragon's constant need to ingest boron. Much the same way we need to drink milk or take vitamins to keep enough calcium in our system for strong bones. Despite a dragon's size, their skeletons are strong enough and built to keep them comfortable standing both on hind legs and all fours. Most of the skeleton is also constructed of flexible plates that slide across one another. The bones that aren't plates are theorized as being hollow like an Earth avian's and contain just 'air', thus making the dragon lighter. But the theory is also countered that certain bones wouldn't contain the strength needed for draconic take offs and landings if they were hollow."

http://zhkyrl.brinkster.net/MountainSongWeyr/encyclopedia/dragons-anatomy.htm

[Kath]

" Dragons have boron-based blood which determines their color as follows:
Gold – queen, female, the only breeding dragons, only dragons ridden by women
Bronze – male, the ‘leaders’, usually mate with queens
Brown – male, slightly smaller than bronze, may mate with greens
Green – female, cannot breed due to chewing firestone
Blue – male, may mate with greens"

from http://www.epinions.com/content_4100432004


It's not Boron in the blood, it's most likely copper. I may not have heard it from the horse's mouth (i.e. Anne), but I have met Jack Cohen, who helped Anne with the science involved in designing somewhat realistic dragons. If he says copper compounds are the most likely source of both haemoglobin subsititutes and dragon colours, I'll believe that over any other source - including Anne herself. That's *why* they only come in a limited range of colours - chemistry on Pern conforms to the same rules it does here.

[Aurelia]

I realize what the blood is now - ichor! I wasn't sure what it was, but I get it now!

"Warm blooded, with a green ichor. This ichor, like human blood, is based on a metal, but not the same, dragon ichor is based on copper, which makes the hide a greenish tint instead of human pink."

http://www.geocities.com/jenaith/anatomy.html#body

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

This also answers the question about boron adaption from Terra:

"Endoskeleton: Dragons are a boron based life form. While humans are carbon based, boron helps dragons to maintain a stronger skeletal system than humans. Earth animals were genetically altered to ingest boron from native plants and make it part of their muscles structure, specifically for a dragon's constant need to ingest boron. Much the same way we need to drink milk or take vitamins to keep enough calcium in our system for strong bones. Despite a dragon's size, their skeletons are strong enough and built to keep them comfortable standing both on hind legs and all fours. Most of the skeleton is also constructed of flexible plates that slide across one another. The bones that aren't plates are theorized as being hollow like an Earth avian's and contain just 'air', thus making the dragon lighter. But the theory is also countered that certain bones wouldn't contain the strength needed for draconic take offs and landings if they were hollow."

http://zhkyrl.brinkster.net/MountainSongWeyr/encyclopedia/dragons-anatomy.htm
They've made a few mistakes. It says there that dragons are boron based, which as Kath so excellantly posted, is incorrect. They do need boron in their systems, but that doesn't mean they're boron BASED. That would be like saying humans are calcium based because we need a steady supply of that.

[Aurelia]

I concede!

"Dragon blood is copper based which is green ichor instead of the iron-based red human blood. Dragons are warm-blooded creatures."
http://weyrling.pern.org/week4/DHL.html

DLG p. 28 - "Their dark green ichor is based on copper, a characteristic they share with tunnel snakes and wherries.".

[Lady Arwyn]

Dragon BONES are boron, not their blood. To fly a creature needs very light weight bone structure. On Earth, using the heavier calcium, flying creatures developed hollow bones. On Pern they use boron, which is plentiful in Pern's geologic makeup, instead of calcium. This makes the bones light enough for flight without being hollow.

[C_ris]

BeBe, just because someone has written it on a website does not not mean that it is in fallible.

[Aurelia]

True...especially if they're not an established, Anne-approved site.

[C_ris]

True...especially if they're not an established, Anne-approved site.

no matter what. They are only opinions. No site is perfect - mine certainly isn't. But they are OPINIONS - and should not be tritted out as an explanation for anything you disagree with.