Dragon sizes

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

I was doing a little dragon doodle on an envolope, and then got carried away and came up with this. I did some measurements and I think I got the sizes right (for those that go by feet, not meters), if I've made any mistakes, feel free to point them out. Sorry for the unfinnished coloring, it was just a pencil sketch and changed the lines from black and white to colored.

[Lady Faizah]

You see that, right there, is why I like greens best. Imagine having to wash and care for an entire gold dragon? :faint:

[Hans]

Too small I think, even Ruth could carry four persons... and he was the smallest; so, while the drawings look nice :ok: I disagree with the size...

Especially the larger dragons are waaaaaayyyy too small.

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

I did this chart using feet, which is apparantly what Anne has said they are. So the green is around 24 feet long, and the gold is about 43. It does look slightly small to me too, but thats what it came out to be. I don't think Anne realized how incredibly squashed it would be to put 4 people on Ruth, it would be difficult even on Ramoth, mainly because of the wingsails. It's no so bad for other cargo, that can be strapped on easily enough, but it's a different matter for people.

[BeckyMildan]

Nice drawings. Actually I think that you got the height right in proportion to the people but I always picture them as longer and thinner bodies. As for getting 4 people on Ruth, you have to remember that they were all young and "thin". If you put two between the ridges at the join of the neck and body and two right in front of them then you could do it. Dragons are bigger then horses and you can get 4 or 5 agile people on a good natured draft horse with no problem.

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

Thank you :) Ruth is supposed to be around 18 feet I think, so with half his length being tail, he'd probably be about the same as a good sized horse. True, you can fit 4 or 5 people on a horse, but they have room on the sides to drop your legs. Most of a dragon's body has the wingsails on both sides and no room for you to put your legs. There could be about 2 on the neck infront of the wings I think, but couldn't imagine how to fit 4 people on poor little Ruth :(

[Kalli]

I think the dimentions are good except that I've always thought of queens and bronzes and being quite heavily built so they can last through Threadfall and mating flights. And blues and greens are leaner and slenderer. Browns I've always though if as being somewhere in between. But the height and length is good, you draw much better than I ever could Bronze. :good:

[Bamy]

hey they are REALLY good!!!!!

[Bamy]

Too small I think, even Ruth could carry four persons... and he was the smallest; so, while the drawings look nice :ok: I disagree with the size...

Especially the larger dragons are waaaaaayyyy too small.they would be coming close in size to dragons of the first pass though!

[maiken]

Very good drawings Bronze, though I have to agree that they are a bit small. They would be correct for the first pass dragons though I think. I agree with Kalli for the most part, and I have always imagined them to be HUGE! That's only big.

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

When I first started reading the pern series, I also imagined them to be gigantic. But Anne has revised and said the modern dragons are supposed to be 20-25 feet instead of meters, which is what I drew these to be (or close to it). I didn't like that idea at first, but it is more practical because a 130 foot queen would be an impossible job to oil all the time, and when threadfighting, ALL the dragons would get threadscored very badly, having hundreds of dragons that huge with that much wing area it's inescapable. and it would be very difficult to climb up a 25 foot tall dragon, and jumping off of them which they always do would likely injure them.

[maiken]

I have to agree.... :)

[ChrisG]

Yeah, I remember thinking how preposterous those drawings in the DLG looked when I saw 'em for the first time. I'd say your drawings are as good a guess as anyone's. And nothing says that sitting astride the dragon's neck is the only way to ride. When Jaxom, Piemur, Menolly, and Sharra rode Ruth, I imagined the hindmost couple likely had their legs splayed forward.

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

You mean kneeling on his back? That might work, but it would be a bumpy ride with the back muscles flexing through flight. And with no straps to keep you secure.... I wouldn't want to be those rear riders.... :erm:

[AnnMarie]

The only thing I disagree with Bronze, is the placement of the wings. The way you have them drawn, they appear to share a joint with the front legs. That would mean a LOT of wear and tear on those joints. If you moved the wings back alittle further, gave them their own jointing spot, you'd not only have a more feasible design, you'd have more space for riders.

[Kalli]

It could be that there's a specially designed saddle for when dragons are carrying multiple passengers.

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

The only thing I disagree with Bronze, is the placement of the wings. The way you have them drawn, they appear to share a joint with the front legs. That would mean a LOT of wear and tear on those joints. If you moved the wings back alittle further, gave them their own jointing spot, you'd not only have a more feasible design, you'd have more space for riders.
I've tried tons of different placements of the wings, trying to get the anatomy and muscles to look actually funcional, and this is the only one that seems to work. The wings and arms have separate joints and their own scapula, but for extra support the alar deltoid is partially anchored on the upper part of the arm's scapula and clavacle (collar bone). Any further back and it would need it's own set of clavacles, which would be very complicated, if not impossible. This is the only configuration I can think of that could work. Always looking for better versions though.

[Maemith]

Those are awesome drawings, but I think I'll have to agree that those are smaller than I was thinking, only if those are 9th Pass dragons. The only reason I say that is that the first golds and bronzes were roughly the size, or a little smaller, than a modern green, right? But if that's the case, the first few clutches of blues and greens would be almost unuseable. They'd just be too small. Say you had a 20 foot queen (which is a big queen for the day, according to the DLG) That works out to a roughly 11 foot green. And that's 11 feet for head, neck, body and tail. Which is just too small to carry a human.

Your dragons are great though, almost exactly how I imagined Pernese dragons to look!

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

Thank you :D

I think the measurements for the original dragons, since they were nearly exactly the same size as horses, they only measured the length of the body, not the tail. Someone else told me they probably measured them just like they did horses. Because, exactly like you said, the original blues and greens would be simply too small if the length included the tail, it would be like riding a dog. Then later when they grew to more full sized, then they started measuring nose-tip to tail.

[BeckyMildan]

Thank you :D

I think the measurements for the original dragons, since they were nearly exactly the same size as horses, they only measured the length of the body, not the tail. Someone else told me they probably measured them just like they did horses. Because, exactly like you said, the original blues and greens would be simply too small if the length included the tail, it would be like riding a dog. Then later when they grew to more full sized, then they started measuring nose-tip to tail.

If you ever saw my neighbor's dog you wouldn't think that riding a dog was all that impossible.

[Raven]

I think the dragons are terribly small for the current pass, as well. In DLG, Ramoth is as big as an L 1011 Jet. That's huge!!! The measurement is from nose tip to tail tip. Here is an example of one such:

http://flytristar.tripod.com/photo_airline01/photobox01/n003.jpg

[maiken]

That's about how big I thought they were! :bouncy:

[BeckyMildan]

The idea that Ramoth is as big as a jet has always been a bit of a problem for me. I think that this comparison was made when dragons were still being measured in meters. Once Anne said that their length should be calulated in feet then the image changed drasticly. :banghead:

[Lady Arwyn]

I've always thought the tails were shorter. That's an awful lot of tail to be trailing behind to be caught by Thread! Plus, dragon poo comes out the end of the tail, the center of the tail would be full of intestine/anal cavity.

So the tail should be thick and short, which would allow for a longer neck/body to fit more people on it.

With the adjustments for the tail to body ratio the dragons would be a bit bigger. The green is about the height Ruth is described (just taller than a tall horse) But yeah, the size in your drawings looks about right. I imagine the hind quarters to be more heavily muscled, like a Quarter Horse, for that powerful spring into the air.

Ruth isn't really that much smaller than the greens, just a couple of feet shorter, which in bulk would make him seem *much* smaller. I've always thought that Anne made a mistake when she put four people on Ruth. Even a large draft horse would be uncomfortable with that.

Raven, the DLG has long been considered unreliable, and the drawings/dragon sizes completely discounted. As Anne says, if they had dragons that big, the amount they would eat would wipe out the entire planet's food-animals.

[Mayhem]

If the neck was longer than the tail, the dragons would be unbalanced in flight, the tail would be mainly counterweight and to shorten it would cause problems. If it was thicker it would also cause problems with the dragon's turning ability, especially without the extra length to support the thickness.

[Brenda]

I have a problem with the hind legs. Dragons are similar to horses; you've drawn horses with wings and dragon tails. That would make them walk like horses, and it's noted that dragons are awkward on the ground.

Regarding size, I remember someone suggesting cubits, which I think was about 2 feet - I picture it at just under 2 feet. Because feet are too small and meters are way too big! Hmm... call this _ a foot.
Here are twenty-five feet:
_________________________

Here are forty-five feet (just under 2 x 25):
_________________________________________

Here are sixty-eight feet (approximately 25 meters):
____________________________________________________________

A nice halfway point, there.

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

If you ever saw my neighbor's dog you wouldn't think that riding a dog was all that impossible.

Not impossible, but its incredibly small for a dragon, and very awkward when they need sharp manoeverability while threadfighting.

As for the tail, once C_ris suggested that the tail wasn't filled with intestines, as that would make it very haevy, but all that was kept inside the body and the tail was just a long passageway for when they needed to excrete it.

Arwen, you're right, I should have drawn the rear legs a bit more bulky. And I need to make them just a bit taller, as you said the green is about the height of ruth, so I need to make them all a bit taller. This was just a quick sketch done in about 5 minutes just to get the basics, I plan to make a better version with fully completed coloring.

Although the jet sized dragons look very awe inspiring, its just a biological impossibility. They wouldn't even be able to walk, they'd collapse under their own weight. Not only would they deplete Pern's resources, but would a Weyr be able to contain *hundreds* of these huge dragons? And when they are blooding, they would just inhale a herdbeast, let alone be cautiouned to ONLY blood it. A few herbeasts wouldn't do diddly squat to their weight in flight.

As for cubits, its seems more toward 'dragonish' size, but I prefer to keep to what Anne has said they are, even if it does look kind of small.

[ChrisG]

A bit of a cop-out, perhaps, but From All the Weyrs of Pern
"Jaxom," Aivas began, "how much weight can the green dragons carry? Their burdens today weigh more than their body weight."
"A dragon is capable of carrying as much as he thinks he can," Jaxom replied with a shrug.

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

lol, I keep forgetting about the telekinesis. But a person riding a dog-sized dragon *would* look silly.

[Ryuu]

Thank you :D

I think the measurements for the original dragons, since they were nearly exactly the same size as horses, they only measured the length of the body, not the tail. Someone else told me they probably measured them just like they did horses. Because, exactly like you said, the original blues and greens would be simply too small if the length included the tail, it would be like riding a dog. Then later when they grew to more full sized, then they started measuring nose-tip to tail.actually, in TWD, Ruth is compared to two horses ("runnerbeans":D--old rosebud:)). Also, in AtWoP, Aivas compares Ruth to being close to the same size as Caranth/Faranth. OTOH, the height of his shoulders might be close to a draft horse--this should make Ruth about the same height, but twice as long as a draft horse.

Ramoth/Mnementh are about three times Ruth size (bulk or dimensions, Aivas doesn't specify). If in dimension, then they would be three times the height and six times the length of a draft horse (tail may or may not be counted--again, no info on this). If it's by bulk, then they would be 1.5 times the height & 8.5 the length of a draft horse (the cube-root of 3 multiplied to Ruth's size)...This, to me, would seem too small and would hardly account for Toric's reaction to Ramoth when he visited Benden. The Oldtimers' dragons might be in this range, however. I think it would be the dimensions that are trippled for Ramoth & Mnementh.

based on your drawings, then Ruth should be about the size of your brown or bronze, especially if you compare the size of Jaxom in Whelan's painting and your "rider" model.

Also, if the tail is "not counted" in the Pernese measurements, then Ryuu's gold form & Ruth would be very much on par with each other :O

[Raven]

I would like to suggest that maybe the dragons are built somewhat like "Draco" in the movie, "Dragonheart". His body seems cat-like to me. Add to that the wings with a simple excretory tube through the tail and they wouldn't be that heavy at the back. Also, I though their excretory apparatus was at the base of their tales, like a cat? Then, give the "Draco" model a bit of a longer head and neck. And wouldn't the telekinesis apply to their own weight, as well?

[Raven]

Oh, and what about their feet and hands? Mnementh is mentioned as having captured Lessa in his front talons and then Ruth carried the missing egg. What do they look like? Their hind legs must be terribly muscular, in order for take off.

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

I would like to suggest that maybe the dragons are built somewhat like "Draco" in the movie, "Dragonheart". His body seems cat-like to me. Add to that the wings with a simple excretory tube through the tail and they wouldn't be that heavy at the back. Also, I though their excretory apparatus was at the base of their tales, like a cat? Then, give the "Draco" model a bit of a longer head and neck. And wouldn't the telekinesis apply to their own weight, as well?

In D'Dawn it mentions them having their excretory apparatus at the fork of the tail, at the tip. And yes, the TK is used for their own weight to sustain flight.

Oh, and what about their feet and hands? Mnementh is mentioned as having captured Lessa in his front talons and then Ruth carried the missing egg. What do they look like? Their hind legs must be terribly muscular, in order for take off.

Thats one thing I have yet to work out. I don't really know exactly what their hands should be like, but so far I've imagined then somewhat like human hands but with stronger and more flexibe joints in the fingers to be able to support walking. And yes, the legs do need to be very muscular for take off, but then they have TK to aid them in that, so its not that much of a stretch.

[Anareth]

With the arms/hands--looking at the pictures, I really think they should be smaller. Anne always describes the dragon's movements as a crouch-hop when they try to walk on the ground. My guess would be that, unlike the drawings, they're rather smallish, and hinged like a human (so that the elbow bends backwards from the way a horse or dog's does) and the dragons would be tilted downhill when on the ground.

And Becky's right, the Ramoth-as-midsize-passenger-jet thing is the result of the DLG getting the measurements wrong. Biologically, a land (much less flying) animal that size is a stretch, Anne-sci or no, and practically as a matter of care it's ludicrous.

[Raven]

Hmmmm, the original dragonets' hands were modified, right? So naturally it would follow that the dragons would also have a more practical 5 digit limb...IMHO. Think about T-rex. He stood 2 stories tall. His head was 6 feet long. It wouldn't be that far a stretch to imagine dragons as similar in proportion...some of the covers even have the dragons resembling T-rex in the head area. Now, that's not as big as a mid-sized jet, but that's still pretty big, and T-rex would need to eat a cow or two every few days. But he would need to be much more muscular and to have better forelimbs to begin to reach dragon size. Any thoughts? :confused:

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

Anareth - ok, I'll try to get the arms shorter next revision time. But I had never known they were *that* awkward on the ground.

Raven - Yes, since the firlizards were modified from dragonets to be pentadactyl, the dragons also had 5 fingers.

A Queen would be almost exactly T.rex length. But as for build, Anne has made it clear they are horse-like. But don't trust covers for accuracy, some even look like iguanas! :eek: Anne has not yet seen a cover that she says is spot on accurate, and I wish that an artist for once could actually try to get it RIGHT and leave his opinions out of it :cry:

[Lady Arwyn]

The largest T-Rex ever found was 42 feet long.

Hmmmm, that's the same size as the larger range for gold dragons, 3 feet shorter than Ramoth....

[Zei]

Oh boy - not this debate again :)

I just imagine them...as...dragons. I don't really have a set size in my head, per se. Golds are huge, greens are small, that's enough for me to handle. If we go into all these measurements we can never enjoy the book properly :D

[Lady Faizah]

Oh boy - not this debate again :)

I just imagine them...as...dragons. I don't really have a set size in my head, per se. Golds are huge, greens are small, that's enough for me to handle. If we go into all these measurements we can never enjoy the book properly :DWell said! :good:

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

Oh boy - not this debate again :)

I just imagine them...as...dragons. I don't really have a set size in my head, per se. Golds are huge, greens are small, that's enough for me to handle. If we go into all these measurements we can never enjoy the book properly :D
Personally, the measuring and knowing the little details enhances my reading experience so I actually know what I'm reading about and can get a vivid mental image while I'm reading the book. But everyone has their own ideas and opinions, and I respect that.

[Maemith]

Personally, the measuring and knowing the little details enhances my reading experience so I actually know what I'm reading about and can get a vivid mental image while I'm reading the book. But everyone has their own ideas and opinions, and I respect that.

I guess those sizes might be a little small for 9th Pass, but I don't think dragons could be too much bigger, and they defintely aren't in meters. Remember in Moreta, when she's riding Malth? She has a passing thought that she might be too heavy for the green, then pushed that thought away because Malth's rider was a big, heavy guy. If greens were much bigger than the one in that picture, I don't see how she could possibly entertain that thought. Especially if you're talking about a 24 meter long dragon. Even a 7' person would be nothing to a dragon that size.

[Ian]

*Going back several posts* A cubit is roughly 18" (the length of a man's forearm from the elbow to the tip of the middle finger), which I must admit I've always found more believeable than either feet (too small) or metres (too big). That would make Ramoth 67 feet rather than 45, big, but not as ridiculously big as metres would make her, & remember than Ramoth & Mnementh were unusually big even by 9th pass standards. Anne told me once in KTL that she imagined a 9th pass bronze/gold to be around 28 hands at the shoulder, which is just over 9 feet, definitely big enough to require a leg-up to get aboard!

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

ok, I'll modify the drawings to cubits and see how that looks

[Brenda]

Remember in Moreta, when she's riding Malth? She has a passing thought that she might be too heavy for the green, then pushed that thought away because Malth's rider was a big, heavy guy. If greens were much bigger than the one in that picture, I don't see how she could possibly entertain that thought.
I think she is just so used to riding a gold, which is so much larger, that she wonders for a second. Compared to Orlith, Malth would look very tiny, even though she's quite large enough to comfortably carry human passengers.

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

Here we go - dragons in cubits. I think it looks better, but I still wonder how some would come out of threadfall unscored. I added Ruth in there too at about 23 feet, as that seems to correspond with how he's described and with what Ryuu said about being 3x smaller than Ramoth. But I just have to get those shoulders lower, they're too high in my drawing.

[Raven]

I am sorry, but I missed the conversation where Anne says the dragons are horse-like. I also think the cubits would work better for measurement. A nice middle ground. But, in the end, it does come down to our own ideas of what Dragons look like. I do wish, however, that Anne could get together with a really good animal artist and get it right, too. It does indeed, make the experience that much more fulfilling. And the covers I refer to are especially the USA covers for Moreta and the Dragonriders of Pern. However, it doesn't seem that Ruth, on the cover of The White Dragon, would fit 4 people on his back. Never mind about being able to lift off. There's just no room behind Jaxom for even another person. OH! And in TWD, Jaxom is thinking to himself how a normal dragon's ridges act as a saddle, to hold in the rider, but Ruth's are too small for such. Makes you think.

[Something Evil]

Hmmm, personally I think that the dragons measured in feet would be the most realistic. Even with the aid of telekinesis, dragons as large as those measured in cubits would take a heavy toll out of the resources of only one planet. Then again, I agree with that the smaller colors measured in feet might be just a bit too small.
What about making the size of the dragons midway between feet and cubits?


Though not entirely correct according to what I said above, a bit like this perhaps;

Gold: 45-50 feet.
Bronze: 40-46 feet.
Brown: 35-42 feet.
Blues: 30-36 feet.
Greens: 25-32 feet.

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

Hmm, its a tough call between whats realistic and what'd been described... dunno how you'd pull of something in between feet and cubits or what to call it, but I agree that would be ideal. Too bad, just got up some continuity...

[Brenda]

I think the hind legs in the drawings are what is bothering me - they don't look like they could crouch down and launch from their hindquarters.

Also, I didn't think Ruth was that much smaller than the greens.

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

Ok, this will be my FINAL chart. Sorry to any of you who may be getting annoyed with it :O

I like this size the best. Feet looked too small, cubits a bit too big for me, but this seems to fit well, but it doesn't coincide with Ruth being 3x smaller than Ramoth. I made shorter arms and a bit more muscular legs. And all these are the largest of each color, so Ruth would be about the same as a small green. Here's how they measure out at the largest -

Gold: 57 feet
Bronze: 50
Brown: 45
Blue: 39
Green: 33
White: 24

[Ryuu]

Yes, these look good, BDR. I would also agree with the size of the heads and eyes as given in the books for the gold & bronze dragons.

[Jax]

Ok, this will be my FINAL chart. Sorry to any of you who may be getting annoyed with it :O

LOL Bronze, it's your thread, if they're getting sick of anything then they can keep their noses out. Sides, apart from the nitpicking (constructive criticism) that I've seen about your pictures, I think everyone is actually very interested to see how they'll turn out :D I think you've done an excellent job! :ok: well done :D

[Maemith]

Ok, this will be my FINAL chart. Sorry to any of you who may be getting annoyed with it :O


I like that size too. Seems pretty resonable to me. Big enough you'd need a leg up to mount, but not so big that they'd totally deplete the herdbeast population.

I like the charts personally. Makes it easier to get a hold of things. I think one of them in the original meter size would be cool too, just to see how huge they'd be in comparison to a person.

BTW, how tall is that person supposed to be? 6 feet? I think I missed that part. :blush:

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

I like that size too. Seems pretty resonable to me. Big enough you'd need a leg up to mount, but not so big that they'd totally deplete the herdbeast population.

I like the charts personally. Makes it easier to get a hold of things. I think one of them in the original meter size would be cool too, just to see how huge they'd be in comparison to a person.

BTW, how tall is that person supposed to be? 6 feet? I think I missed that part. :blush:

Thank you, I'm glad you like my charts :) Yeah, thats why I made the charts, its better to get an actual image on the screen than to have to use an imagination to try and think it out. But it is time consuming! :laugh: And yes, I figure the average Male rider would be about 6 feet, with the females being just slightly shorter.

And I certainly don't mind any nitpicking/constructive criticism. After all, I want these to be *accurate* not just strictly how I imagine them, so all opinions are taken into consideration and appreciated. Everyone here has offered great points and has helped in creating what you see.

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

I think I've just found the solution to the problem of the Ruth/Ramoth comparison. Ryuu had said that Ruth was 3x smaller, and in my drawings he is too either too big, or too small in comparison to a green. I looked through AtWoP for that quote. What I found was similar -

"I still don't see why our ancestors didn't take care of the problem when they had the chance to," R'mart said.

"Your ancestors did not have dragons the size and intelligence of yours. The species has evolved and exceeded the original genetic specifications. If you will observe..." Images of two dragons flicked onto Aivas's screen. "The bronze is Carenath, Sean O'Connell is his rider, and the other is Faranth and Sorka Hanrahan." Two more dragons appeared on the screen, three times the size of the first two. "Now, there are Ramoth and Mnementh. The scale of comparison is accurate."

"Why, that bronze isn't as big as Ruth," T'bor said, shooting an appologetic glance at the Benden Weyrleaders.
So the original dragons were even somewhat smaller than Ruth. He's 24 feet in my latest chart, and if I make the originals 19 feet long, then they are exactly 1/3 the size of Ramoth, and everything now fits together. Thanx Ryuu for making me search for that :D

[Ryuu]

I'm glad you found it! :applause: I had a minor water leak in my lair & I forgot all about looking up the info until I was on the bus this morning going to work :banghead:

[Tygress]

great work... I have to say though no matter what form of measurement you use... A queen is an awfull lot of dragon to bathe and oil. :eek:

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

Yup I have to agree with you there, Tygress, any dragon would be quite a task.

Well, I wasn't going to post this at first, but since a few other people have asked for it, heres dragons in meters to show just how enourmous that is.

[Something Evil]

Very impressive, even if those sizes aren't very realistic for the pernese dragons. How long is each of the colors on the chart though?

[Maemith]

Wow, those are considerably bigger than even I thought. They are impressive, but not realistic. I don't think you could even sit on that gold's neck without being very, very sore later. :eek:

Not to mention they'd probably step on people quite a bit.

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

YUp, they'd almost be doing the splits riding those dragons. And probably break their legs every time they jumped off.

The measurements for the big ones are roughly-
Gold: 45 meters
Bronze: 38
Brown: 35
Blue: 30
Green: 25
White: 19

[maygirl]

Amazing drawings Bronze, I really wish I could draw like that.
IF they were measured in metres it would the front end of Ramoth would be dirty again before you had even got to the back end with the oil pot!

[Mitch]

ok, several things here.

1) Regarding the sizes of the 1st Pass dragons ... Remember one thing ... they were all more or less of a size ... only a foot's difference from one size to the next at most ... not the 5 foot difference that's generally calculated for the 9th Pass dragons.

2) Regarding Ramoth being three times Ruth's size ... Anne didn't necessarily mean in length alone. Remember, there's sheer, bloody mass. A 45 foot long dragon is going to be huge all over. It'd be like comparing a Shetland pony to a Shire draft horse. There isn't all that much difference length wise, but height and mass wise, there's a HUGE difference.

3) Regarding the eternal, everlasting feet vs meters debate. I sat down once and did some very rough figuring. Dragons need to be bathed and oiled frequently. There's no real way to guess how much surface area there is on their bodies, but using Ramoth (who's the only one that was given a definite length) as a model, I sat down and did a rough calculation on wing surface area needing to be washed.

If Ramoth's wings were perfect squares (which they aren't of course) and saying that the wings are 1.66 times the body length ...

45 foot Ramoth would have roughly 2, 312 sq. ft. of wing to wash. That's a large house's worth. Doable in a few hours.

45 *meter* Ramoth would have roughly 28,800 sq. ft. of wing to wash. NOT HARDLY!!!!!

Besides which gang. We're talking flying, firebreathing critters here. Even an 18 foot long critter like that would have me in awe.

[Brenda]

I always assume that the fully grown dragons are seldom oiled all over - just for special occasions, like Orlith before the gather in Moreta. Even the bathing - that's mostly for firestone stink, and I would think being in the water would take care of most of that - I doubt every inch has to be scrubbed. Besides, what are fire lizards for?

[Ryuu]

Not only that, but Lessa always got F'lar to help ;) :wave: :applause:

[Mitch]

I'll grant you that all-over oiling didn't have to happen all the time. But it *was* done, probably once a month or so. "spot" oiling only does so much good. Try it on a pair of leather boots sometime. Every once in a while you have to give the whole kit and kaboodle a going over.

And while there is never a set time it takes mentioned in the books, the implication is that the washing and oiling done for special ocassions doesn't take an ungodly length of time.

And the simple facts are ... washing and oiling a creature that has damn near 30,000 square feet of hide in the wings alone would take forever. It's fair to say that there's probably another 30,000 square feet in the head, neck, body, legs, and tail. Probably more. It would take about ten people (or around 50 firelizards, probably more) to even *begin* to have a hope of getting a 45 meter dragon washed and oiled in less than half a day.

And in every instance where an all-over wash and oil job was done, the implication was that it DIDN'T take all that long. One particular mention I remember was of Moreta getting ready to go to the Ruathan gather,and she had oiled Orlith the day of the festivities. And she got there before lunch.

Now granted, Moreta's gold was not the size of Ramoth, but still, she'd have been big. And Moreta had *no* firelizards to help. There is no way that a single woman could have oiled over 30,000 square feet of dragon hide (total, not just the wings) alone in a few hours. Not a chance.

But a single woman could easily have oiled 2,000 square feet of dragon in a few hours.

And like someone pointed out ... there are other logistical problems with a 45 meter dragon. Like the fact that a creature that damned big could inhale a full grown bull and not even realize it. A creature that size trying to catch a cow would be like T-rex going after a mouse. Not only is that mouse not anywhere near enough to sate T-rex, catching and eating it present huge problems. It's too damned small. A 45 meter flying predator would end up smearing a cow across a couple dozen acres of land without meaning too. One half-ass swipe of the claws and that cow would be in literally a half dozen pieces. Not to mention ... just *how* many meadows, clearings, what have you do you think Pern has that are big enough to enable a dragon to hunt? They'd need at least 3 to 4 times their body length at the minimum to swoop down, grab the critter, and get back up in the air. That, boys and girls, means a clearing at *least* 450 feet long. Ideally, they'd need more space than that. Most dragons seem to like to make their prey run like ninnies for a bit. And stampeding cows can cover a *lot* of distance in a matter of a few seconds. It'd take half a herd of cows to satisfy *one* dragon for *one* week. It's just not feasible.

[Monkeysrule]

actually, in TWD, Ruth is compared to two horses ("runnerbeans":D--old rosebud:)). Also, in AtWoP, Aivas compares Ruth to being close to the same size as Caranth/Faranth.
I think you mean Carenath- Trust me, I've read that book almost as many times as I read Watership Down (A great rereadable :ok: ), but, then again, that could be an AMC mistake. :roll:
Caranth is a dragon in Dragonsblood--forgot the color and the rider, though :blush2:

[queenrider melody]

That looks about right to me.

[Monkeysrule]

Amazing drawings Bronze, I really wish I could draw like that.
IF they were measured in metres it would the front end of Ramoth would be dirty again before you had even got to the back end with the oil pot!
Like the Golden Gate Bridge! Every time they finish painting it, they have to start over with the side!! :eek:

[queenrider melody]

Have you considered posting these drawings on the art forum? They are really good!

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

Oh! I'd gotten so caught up before with getting the measurements right when I was drawing it, that I'd never even thought of putting them on the art forum! :laugh:

[Monkeysrule]

Go for it, Bronze! People like new art on the are forums.

[queenrider melody]

You know, Bronze, I'm still waiting for you to post these drawings on the Art Forum.

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

Woops, it slipped my mind :blush: :disguise: but its up there now.

[Monkeysrule]

I'm off to see it!

[Valihi Wingsecond]

Here we go - dragons in cubits. I think it looks better, but I still wonder how some would come out of threadfall unscored. I added Ruth in there too at about 23 feet, as that seems to correspond with how he's described and with what Ryuu said about being 3x smaller than Ramoth. But I just have to get those shoulders lower, they're too high in my drawing.

I think I like the cubits best, at least that's the closest to how I've always pictured them in my head, ignoring all this metres-feet-and-whatnot nonsense... :disguise:

Oh, and just a note on how much dragons feed... I distinctly remember T'dam, the Weyrlingmaster in RSR, mentioning that by adulthood, a dragon would only need to be eating twice a week. Despite beign warm-blooded creatures, their metabolism is like a cold-blood reptile's: slow...

Still, I'll admit he never said how much they ate twice a week, so even if we know frequency, we don't know amount... :blush:

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

That's true, they do eat very infrequently. But they'd probably have 2 or 3 bucks each time. With thousands of these dragons eating even that far between, its still ALOT. It does seem odd that a warm blooded creature would be able to function on so little feeding, but then again, they ARE alien and probably work differently than here on earth.

[Mayhem]

Am I the only one to see words like size and dragon in red and bold?
It is HIGHLY annoying.
Let's see if it does it for this post too!
I tried quoting the posts, but there is no text formatting to make them that way

[Kath]

That sounds like what you'd see if you'd done a search for "dragon size"...

To answer your question, I see those words in just the same format as everything else.

[Jax]

Perhaps you clicked on a link someone gave you Plat, when they did a search for dragon size - Oh yes, one of the ones Bronzie posted in that other thread I'm sure, he just didn't erase the bit from the link that says "&highlight+dragon+size" or whatever it is :)

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

Woops :O

[Lady Arwyn]

I found the following quote from Anne...

... fighting adragonback is hard work, and keeping them clean is harder. You've groomed horses - multiply that by three times and you've got the size of a dragon to keep clean. - Anne McCaffrey

Three times the grooming of a horse isn't all that big. She says often that when referring to a generic dragon, such as reference to "a dragonlegnth" it refers to greens, the most common dragon on Pern. Can anyone figure out what 3x the surface area of a horse would be? I would assume a 16.2hh warmblood type horse, which seems to be Anne's favorite.

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

Oooh, nice find! I'm not patient enough for the math though... :laugh:

You know, with all the citations and points brought up, there's SO much to go through. It'd be nice to have a list all together of every descriptive quote, both from the books (excluding DLG) and interviews, to have an easier time of piecing it all together so that nothing's left out.

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

Well I went ahead and did it myself :laugh: These are all the quotes that I could find, but I'm sure there are more, so please chip in if you can remember any! :good: I'm putting the basic notes in a list, the number paired with the quote at the bottom.



Original Dragons
1. A third of the size of Ramoth
2. 16 hands at the shoulder

Ruth
3. Just bigger than Jaxom's torso at hatching
1. Just over a third the size of Ramoth
4. Bigger than any runnerbeast by half- to a full head. Eye level of F'lar.
5. Half the size of his peers

Modern Dragons
6. Ramoth's head is as large as Lessa's Torso at hatching
7. Average dragon is 3 times size of a horse
8. Mnementh is twice the size of the Oldtimers
9. Mnementh's eye is on a level with F'lar's with his chin to the ground at a certain angle
10. A queen dragon is the length of a 14-person ship





1. All the Weyrs of Pern: Images of two dragons flicked onto Aivas's screen. "The bronze is Carenath, Sean O'Connell is his rider, and the other is Faranth and Sorka Hanrahan." Two more dragons appeared on the screen, three times the size of the first two. "Now, there are Ramoth and Mnementh. The scale of comparison is accurate."

2. Dragonsdawn: (about Cricket) "Grand fellow, though," Red remarked, nodding his head approvingly. "Make a good sixteen hands, if I'm any judge."

The bronze was nearly the same height in the shoulder as Cricket, though the conformation was entirely different, Carenath being much longer in the body, deeper in the barrel, and stronger in the hindquarters. In fact, the dragons already were much stronger than similar equines, their basic structure much more durable, utilizing carborundums for strength and resilience.

3. Dragonquest: Jaxom ripped the slippery stuff open with his belt knife and, from the sac, fell a tiny white body, not much larger than Jaxom’s torso.

4. The White Dragon: "Hey, now," N'ton reacted to Jaxom's sad sigh, "he's bigger than any runner beast by half a head, isn't he?"

His attention was centered on Ruth, and the white dragon raised his head slightly to be at eye level with the tall Weyrleader.
...
"Ruth's a full head higher in the shoulder than runner beasts. Sturdier, too."


5. The White Dragon: "Yes, Jaxom, Ruth is a proper dragon, for all he's half the size of his fellows!"

6. Dragonflight: Why hadn't that silly clunk-headed girl stepped aside, Lessa thought, grabbing for the wedgehead, at birth not much larger than her own torso.

7. Interview: ...fighting adragonback is hard work, and keeping them clean is harder. You've groomed horses - multiply that by three times and you've got the size of a dragon to keep clean.

8. The White Dragon: Toric wasn't looking at him. He was staring up at the ledge where bronze Mnementh was seated on his haunches, regarding the new arrivals, his jewel-faceted eyes gleaming in the dim light.
...
"He's almost twice as big as any of the Oldtimers' beasts," Toric said in a respectfully hushed voice. "And I thought N'ton's Lioth was big!"

9. Dragonflight - Mnementh arched his neck, angling his head so that his chin rested on the ground. Mnementh's many-faceted eyes, on a level with F'lar's head, fastened with disconcerting interest on the approaching party.

10. The MasterHarper of Pern: There were two other women in the crew of fourteen, for the Northern Maid was the length of a queen dragon.





Problem - if Ruth's shoulder is about 6 feet tall (reasoning that a runnerbeast is 16 hands - 64 inches - tall, and add a head, 10 inches? That adds to just over 6 feet. That would mean that his head would have to be straight out infront of him, maybe slightly higher, to be at an eye level with F'lar. It says that Ruth had to RAISE his head to be at eye level with him? That doesn't make sense, his head could easily reach to at least 7 or 8 feet if his shoulders were at 6. Perhaps it means the wing shoulder rather than arm shoulder, which should be quite a bit lower anyway?

Also, how long would a 14 person ship be? It can't be TOO big, because it was possible to be sailed by only 4 people - Captain Gostol sailed the Northern Maid with just Vesna and two others to man her - his crew was also decimated by the fever.

[Mayhem]

Of course, Carenath was 16 hands at 1 year old....
Nothing after that though was there?
I'd call they added another 3 or 4 hands at full growth...
Of course I could be wrong!

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

There are numerous references that most of their growth is in their first Turn, and the next six months it slows down significantly. Carenath was nearly the height of Cricket, but there's nothing to say exactly how high he is other than Red's estimate when he was a colt. But I'd say 16 hands is a fair guess. So maybe one more hand of growth until Carenath was full-sized?

[Mayhem]

Sounds like it could work...

I may be going off horses. They can gain another 2 or three hands between their 2nd and 3rd year

[Bamy]

Not impossible, but its incredibly small for a dragon, and very awkward when they need sharp manoeverability while threadfighting.

As for the tail, once C_ris suggested that the tail wasn't filled with intestines, as that would make it very haevy, but all that was kept inside the body and the tail was just a long passageway for when they needed to excrete it.

Arwen, you're right, I should have drawn the rear legs a bit more bulky. And I need to make them just a bit taller, as you said the green is about the height of ruth, so I need to make them all a bit taller. This was just a quick sketch done in about 5 minutes just to get the basics, I plan to make a better version with fully completed coloring.

Although the jet sized dragons look very awe inspiring, its just a biological impossibility. They wouldn't even be able to walk, they'd collapse under their own weight. Not only would they deplete Pern's resources, but would a Weyr be able to contain *hundreds* of these huge dragons? And when they are blooding, they would just inhale a herdbeast, let alone be cautiouned to ONLY blood it. A few herbeasts wouldn't do diddly squat to their weight in flight.

As for cubits, its seems more toward 'dragonish' size, but I prefer to keep to what Anne has said they are, even if it does look kind of small.I alwas saw Ramoth a the length of that typeof jet which includes tail and neck and so makes her about the right size.

[Ryuu]

The biggest problem resulting in the discussion of their sizes is: Anne's taking a standard that works for one animal and applying it to one that has been generally and historically described by a different standard.

While everyone on this planet has seen horses, the convention to only describe an equine by its shoulder height is sufficient to give anyone a fairly accurate picture of just how big--length, girth, mass, etc--it is.

Not everyone has seen dragons, however. Aside from the variety of draconic forms, which Anne only uses one type, she never provided their porportions--percentages of their length for the head, neck, body, wings (in terms of how much body-length the wing membrane is attached), tail, girth of the various parts, mass, etc. Dragons have traditionally been described by their length--both in terms of total and sometimes by just the total-sans-tail, a dimension that shoulder-height sorely lacks.

And one more factor is how many people can the dragon carry. Since Anne applies the horse-analogy too greatly, there's a lot of confusion resulting. A Shetland pony can hold 4 people, after all! If her dragons had no wings, Ruth could've done it and only need to be the length of a 10' crocodile--but wings get in the way of that many people being able to sit on him and limits where and how they can safely be carried and still not interfere with the functioning of Ruth's wings. And given that her dragons are using an enormously powerful TK for lift, theoretically, Menolly's gold queen Beauty could have carried her, Jaxom, Sharra, and Piemur to Landing--but 4 people can NOT sit astride Beauty! Nor Ruth, if he's too short.

It's already been established that one or two will fit on his shoulders (Jaxom & Menolly when they went searching for D'ram), the other two would have to sit with their legs straight out ahead if there's not enough room for a third on his shoulders. There's still the manner by which the rear-most rider has to be tethered. He/she is going to be at the end of a long chain of people flopping up and down on Ruth's spine as the dragon bobs along in his flight. That person would likely need an anchor line around the base of Ruth's tail.

The quotes that Bronzie took from TWD:
4. The White Dragon: "Hey, now," N'ton reacted to Jaxom's sad sigh, "he's bigger than any runner beast by half a head, isn't he?" Another mention on the same page has F'lar's observation that he's bigger than the runners by a full head--both these comments are refering to his shoulder height--again, useless in describing the length of a dragon if you have no idea of it's conformational porportions:no:

His attention was centered on Ruth, and the white dragon raised his head slightly to be at eye level with the tall Weyrleader. From DragonFlight: Mnementh arched his neck, angling his head so that his chin rested on the ground. Mnementh's many-faceted eyes, on a level with F'lar's head, fastened with disconcerting interest on the approaching party.In that same paragraph, Mnementh puzzles over the pose of respect to instill awe in the non-dragonriders. I had read this passage from TWD to be that Ruth was intentionally keeping his head low, while the Weyrleaders conferred about him, just as Mnementh had done back in DF.
...
"Ruth's a full head higher in the shoulder than runner beasts. Sturdier, too."That's F'ar's comment that I just mentioned.

Unfortunately, the only way this matter will be solved is if/when the movie comes out and Anne's still alive to be able to say "Yes, this is what I imagined the dragons to look like in both form and size"--Presumably, the aborted WB project, she had seen them and either given her blessing or not--and until we get to see a picture from it (that doesn't happen to be a view of the dragon and rider from over 5-miles away :roll: ) we can get a clearer idea of what they're like, the current project is our best hope of ever agreeing on it:shrug:

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

Well, anyone who's visiting Ireland anytime soon, as her for the proportions! :D

[Mausey]

But Ruth can and has carried four. He took Jaxon, Menolly, Piemur and Sharra (?)to explore the visions the fire lizards were sending. In the book he strained a bit to get off the ground but once in the air was fine. If small Ruth can carry four, how many could a full sized dragon carry?

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

In the BOOKS he was able to, but I think Ryuu means the practicality of it actually happening. Personally, I see absolutley no reason why they could not fit. I've done measurement sketches, and there's still room to spare along the back. It would be a very bumpy ride for the last two people, but they could pull it off.

As for how many a full sized dragon can carry, in Moreta, bronze Nabeth carried six people without any apparant difficulty.

[Lady Arwyn]

I still think that Ruth carrying four for that flight was a brain-fart by Anne. I discount it as reasonable.

[C_ris]

It depends on a lot of variables - for one, how big are Jaxom, Sharra, Menolly and Piemur? And how close together where they seated? How large is Ruth actually? None of these can we know, so whilst we can certainly agree that it eould be uncomfortable, we cannot determine that it is impossible without having those sizes!

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

Here's a rough sketch of that reference to Mnementh's eye being on a level with F'lar's head with his chin angled down to the ground. http://www.deviantart.com/view/36612327/ He measured in at 96 feet long. I think this is way too big, twice the size he should be. But I don't think Anne had her measurements figured out when she wrote things like that, because in the very same book it says that Ramoth has a six foot long head, which is only half the size of this :erm:

[Ryuu]

Here's a rough sketch of that reference to Mnementh's eye being on a level with F'lar's head with his chin angled down to the ground. http://www.deviantart.com/view/36612327/ He measured in at 96 feet long. I think this is way too big, twice the size he should be. But I don't think Anne had her measurements figured out when she wrote things like that, because in the very same book it says that Ramoth has a six foot long head, which is only half the size of this :erm:Here's an interesting feature in your sketch, Bronzie:

If you'll notice, the thickness of Mnementh's head (from the verticle if his head were straight out and his jaw lying on the ground) is nearly 6', too. With Ramoth noticably bigger than him, that would fit with the quote from the book--since the paragraph doesn't actually have the word "length" in it & might be typical of Anne's odd use of measuring dragons by the height of their shoulders ;)

DF online


Ramoth yawned mightily. Lessa was instantly on her feet, running to her dragon's side, her slight figure dwarfed by the six-foot dragon head

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

Huh, good point. Wish she'd be more specific :roll:

[Ryuu]

Wish she'd be more specific :roll:Tell me about it :shake:

:rofl:

[Something Evil]

This is a rather interesting topic, so I thought that I should give it a bump. For new members.

[rajenath]

Here's an interesting feature in your sketch, Bronzie:

If you'll notice, the thickness of Mnementh's head (from the verticle if his head were straight out and his jaw lying on the ground) is nearly 6', too. With Ramoth noticably bigger than him, that would fit with the quote from the book--since the paragraph doesn't actually have the word "length" in it & might be typical of Anne's odd use of measuring dragons by the height of their shoulders ;)

With a head that big and a neck that thick, as someone mantioned up-thread, you'd have to do a split in order to sit on the dragon's neck. I suppose it would work if you had a seat built up enough to allow the rider to kneel with some comfort, but I would imagine even that would be difficult. Make the seat too high, and you'd end up swinging around. Plus, it would increase the difficulty of repairing and keeping in shape one's riding leathers.

[Kath]

With a head that big and a neck that thick, as someone mantioned up-thread, you'd have to do a split in order to sit on the dragon's neck. I suppose it would work if you had a seat built up enough to allow the rider to kneel with some comfort, but I would imagine even that would be difficult. Make the seat too high, and you'd end up swinging around. Plus, it would increase the difficulty of repairing and keeping in shape one's riding leathers.

Do you need to do the splits to sit on the floor? No.


Anyway, the neck won't be 6 foot wide at the top, it'll be considerably narrower, probably more like a horse's neck in cross-section. I imagine it'd be far more comfortable to sit on a dragon's neck than on, say, the back of an elephant or a 19HH shire horse... Now that latter does involve a bit of stretching, but it's nothing you can't get used to.

[rajenath]

Do you need to do the splits to sit on the floor? No.


Anyway, the neck won't be 6 foot wide at the top, it'll be considerably narrower, probably more like a horse's neck in cross-section. I imagine it'd be far more comfortable to sit on a dragon's neck than on, say, the back of an elephant or a 19HH shire horse... Now that latter does involve a bit of stretching, but it's nothing you can't get used to.

1. I agree that you don't need to do a split to sit on the floor. You could kneel or sit cross-legged. That might be comfortable for a fairly short amount of time on a floor, longer if you do so regularly. However, I wouldn't want to do either on the back of a flying dragon. I don't care how good the straps are, I'm going to want my legs holding me to that dragon's neck. Kneeling doesn't allow one that kind of grip. It also doesn't allow any chance of bareback riding of a larger dragon.


2. I don't see how the picture of Mnementh looking at F'lar could be the right size. His neck looks pretty flat to me, at least from the perspective of someone sitting on it. That would require straps for the rider, since anyone trying to kneel or sit on it sans straps would just fall off.

As far as I can tell, Lessa's first ride of Ramoth is bareback. I just can't conceive of that being possible if Ramoth is really bigger than the above-referenced picture of Mnementh. (Actually, with some of the described moves Ramoth makes, I doubt Lessa could have stayed on even with a really good leg grip and a tight grip on a neck-ridge, but I suppose it might have been possible.) I just don't see how she could have gotten riding leathers big enough, since she was forbidden to fly.

Even if we put that down to issues caused by Anne not knowing the world well enough in DF, there are mentions in other books. In the Dolphins of Pern, T'lion conveys Alemi to Landing on his bronze Gadareth. Now, Gadareth is three years old, so he's probably at full growth. As a bronze, he would probably be only a few feet less long than Mnementh in the picture, and if so, his neck would be too wide to grasp with one's legs. However, the text says:

The young bronze swooped down, gliding straight for the ground in a maneuver that made Alemi hold his breath and sit as hard into the neck ridge as he could, jamming his feet down and his knees against the neck of the dragon as hard as he could.

That sounds like Alemi's feet are down along the sides of the dragon's neck, and that Alemi has reason to believe that pushing his knees in will do him some good. If he were kneeling, there would be no point to pushing his knees anywhere. I don't remember whether or not Alemi had ever ridden a dragon, but his response to it sounds like he is riding the dragon as he would ride a horse. That requires a reasonably small neck, much smaller than a 96-foot Mnementh's neck would be.

Honestly, the only way I can see the "chin on the ground" quote working is if Mnementh had rested his chin on a bump in the rock. Otherwise, he wouldn't be the right size for someone to actually put their legs around his neck to grip.

[Aurelia]

Rajenath: do you have the e-books/online versions?

As to Lessa's first ride on Ramoth:

DF on.:

Suddenly, on the periphery of his vision, he caught the glint of gold in the sky.
Mnementh, he snapped, and Mnementh merely rumbled happily. The queen wheeled into view just then, a brave and glowing sight, F'lar grudgingly admitted.
Dressed in flowing white, Lessa was distinctly visible on the curved golden neck. Ramoth hovered, her wing-span greater than even Mnementh's as she vaned idly. From the way she arched her neck, it was obvious that Ramoth was in good and playful spirits, but F'lar was furious.

This may help:

He had no serious doubts of the improvement after Ramoth's remarkable mating flight with his Mnementh. The bronze dragon smugly echoed his rider's certainty, and both looked on the queen possessively as she curved her wings to land. She was twice Nemorth's size, for one thing; her wings were half-awing again longer than Mnementh's, who was the biggest of the seven male bronzes.

Here's a good example of how to sit a dragon/mounting.

TWD on.:

F'lar glanced first at N'ton, who grinned, and then at F'nor, who shrugged acquiescence. "It's unanimous, Jaxom. Mnementh doesn't understand why we're all making such a fuss. Mount then, lad." F'lar stepped forward as if to give Jaxom a leg up to the neck of the white dragon.
Jaxom was torn between pleasure at having the Weyrleader of all Pern to assist him and indignation that F'lar thought him incapable of mounting unaided.
Ruth intervened by swinging his wings out of the way and bending his left knee. Jaxom stepped lightly on the proffered limb and swung to the proper position between the last two neck ridges. Those protuberances in a full dragon were sufficient to keep a man steady in ordinary flight, but Lytol had insisted that Jaxom use riding straps as a safety measure. As Jaxom secured the strap buckles to his belt's metal loops, he cast surreptitious glances at the crowd. But no one showed a trace of surprise or contempt for this precaution. When he was ready, that awful coldness of doubt rose once more in his belly. Supposing that Ruth couldn't…
He caught the confident grin on N'ton's face and saw Master Robinton and Menolly hold up their hands in salute. Then F'lar lifted his fist above his head in the traditional signal to rise.
Jaxom took a deep breath. "Let's fly, Ruth!"
He felt the bunching of muscle as Ruth assumed a semi-crouch, felt the tension through the back, the shift of musculature under his calves as the huge wings lifted for the all-important first downsweep. Ruth deepened his crouch slightly just as he kicked away from the ground with his powerful hind legs. Jaxom's head snapped on his neck. Instinctively he grabbed for the security of the straps, then hung on tightly as the little white dragon's powerful wing strokes lifted them upward, past the first rank of windows and the startled faces of the holders, up so quickly to the fire-heights that Jaxom saw the other tiers of windows in a blur. Then the great dragons extended their wings, bugling encouragement to Ruth. Fire-lizards swirled about them, adding their silvery voices. Jaxom just hoped they wouldn't startle Ruth or get in his way.

[Ryuu]

2. I don't see how the picture of Mnementh looking at F'lar could be the right size. His neck looks pretty flat to me, at least from the perspective of someone sitting on it. That would require straps for the rider, since anyone trying to kneel or sit on it sans straps would just fall off.

....

Honestly, the only way I can see the "chin on the ground" quote working is if Mnementh had rested his chin on a bump in the rock. Otherwise, he wouldn't be the right size for someone to actually put their legs around his neck to grip.Straps and saddles are mentioned many times throughout the series -- however, the early published stories lacked considerable detail as Anne hadn't yet fleshed out her stories. Straps, buckles, saddles and the like mentioned in Dragonquest and The White Dragon are implicit in Dragonflight.

As for the "chin on the ground" quote, they were standing on the flagstones before High Reaches Hold -- note F'lar grinding the weeds growing from between the cracks.

[Aurelia]

In the BOOKS he was able to, but I think Ryuu means the practicality of it actually happening. Personally, I see absolutley no reason why they could not fit. I've done measurement sketches, and there's still room to spare along the back. It would be a very bumpy ride for the last two people, but they could pull it off.

As for how many a full sized dragon can carry, in Moreta, bronze Nabeth carried six people without any apparant difficulty.

A blue can probably carry four people maximum.

Mor. on.:

Capiam was clearly delighted, twisting about to grin past Desdra at Moreta then checking discreetly that Desdra was comfortable. "Four riders are not excessive weight for your Arith, M'barak?" he asked as the blue rider swung into his forward position.
"Not my Arith," the boy replied stoutly, "or I'd've mentioned it."

[Lady Arwyn]

Ruth was able to carry four people, flying straight, in TWD. I never have been quite able to figure out how he did it, but it *must* have had something to do with the telekenesis thing. "A dragon can carry whatever s/he thinks s/he can carry."

[Ryuu]

A blue can probably carry four people maximum.

Mor. on.:But remember, while Moreta's dragons are bigger than the original enhanced natives that Ping made, they're going to be smaller than even the Oldtimers, much less the 9th Pass riders.

The only direct size comparison between the extremes is with Carenth, Faranth, and Ruth where Mnementh and Ramoth are about three times larger.

[Aurelia]

Ruth was able to carry four people, flying straight, in TWD. I never have been quite able to figure out how he did it, but it *must* have had something to do with the telekenesis thing. "A dragon can carry whatever s/he thinks s/he can carry."

Ruth is also a SuperDragon: he can do whatever he wants...He was strengthened by flying straight for a while, and none of them are really heavy: they're only going for a short distance.

TWD on.:

Jaxom clenched his teeth, glaring at her. "You're sure you could carry four?" he asked Ruth.
The dragon emerged on the beach, his eyes glowing with excitement.
I have had to fly straight for many days now. That has made me very strong. None of you are heavy. The distance is not great. We are going to see the mountain?

Also, that quote you're referring to in SoP is this one:

SoP on.:

F'lessan and Tai exchanged glances, and F'lessan burst into laughter.
"What's so funny?"
"He weighs as much as he thinks he does," F'lessan managed to say and that set Tai laughing.
Jubb looked from him to Sagassy to Keita and the others and shrugged.
"No one ever weighed a dragon before? We weigh herd-beasts 'n' everything all the time." He threw his hands up in the air. "Well, thought it might help."

I think that F'lessan really was just making a joke: I don't think that Ruth could really carry as many people as he wants to just because he *thinks* he can. A green couldn't carry a bronze on her back just because she *thinks* she could: she'd break her spine.

But remember, while Moreta's dragons are bigger than the original enhanced natives that Ping made, they're going to be smaller than even the Oldtimers, much less the 9th Pass riders.

The only direct size comparison between the extremes is with Carenth, Faranth, and Ruth where Mnementh and Ramoth are about three times larger.

But, if Orlith probably was about the size of Mardra's 8th-Pass queen Loranth, as has been theorized, then I'd guess the blues probably are about the same size, too: give or take a few inches.

[Lady Arwyn]

I agree with Aurelia, 6th Pass dragons were full size, the same size as 8th Pass dragons. I think they nearly reached full size by the 3rd Pass and didn't grow again until the Long Interval isolation of Benden.

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

1. I agree that you don't need to do a split to sit on the floor. You could kneel or sit cross-legged. That might be comfortable for a fairly short amount of time on a floor, longer if you do so regularly. However, I wouldn't want to do either on the back of a flying dragon. I don't care how good the straps are, I'm going to want my legs holding me to that dragon's neck. Kneeling doesn't allow one that kind of grip. It also doesn't allow any chance of bareback riding of a larger dragon.


2. I don't see how the picture of Mnementh looking at F'lar could be the right size. His neck looks pretty flat to me, at least from the perspective of someone sitting on it. That would require straps for the rider, since anyone trying to kneel or sit on it sans straps would just fall off.

As far as I can tell, Lessa's first ride of Ramoth is bareback. I just can't conceive of that being possible if Ramoth is really bigger than the above-referenced picture of Mnementh. (Actually, with some of the described moves Ramoth makes, I doubt Lessa could have stayed on even with a really good leg grip and a tight grip on a neck-ridge, but I suppose it might have been possible.) I just don't see how she could have gotten riding leathers big enough, since she was forbidden to fly.

Even if we put that down to issues caused by Anne not knowing the world well enough in DF, there are mentions in other books. In the Dolphins of Pern, T'lion conveys Alemi to Landing on his bronze Gadareth. Now, Gadareth is three years old, so he's probably at full growth. As a bronze, he would probably be only a few feet less long than Mnementh in the picture, and if so, his neck would be too wide to grasp with one's legs. However, the text says:



That sounds like Alemi's feet are down along the sides of the dragon's neck, and that Alemi has reason to believe that pushing his knees in will do him some good. If he were kneeling, there would be no point to pushing his knees anywhere. I don't remember whether or not Alemi had ever ridden a dragon, but his response to it sounds like he is riding the dragon as he would ride a horse. That requires a reasonably small neck, much smaller than a 96-foot Mnementh's neck would be.

Honestly, the only way I can see the "chin on the ground" quote working is if Mnementh had rested his chin on a bump in the rock. Otherwise, he wouldn't be the right size for someone to actually put their legs around his neck to grip.

I imagine that a dragon's neck is more like a horse's. It's actually quite narrow. So At the size of a dragon (in MY imagination anyway, from 40-60 feet in the larger ones), I imagine the width would be more like the back of a horse, a bit wider for bronzes and golds, and a person can sit on that just fine. At 96 feet though, you're right, it'd be far too big.

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

I agree with Aurelia, 6th Pass dragons were full size, the same size as 8th Pass dragons. I think they nearly reached full size by the 3rd Pass and didn't grow again until the Long Interval isolation of Benden.

Me too. If they had grown steadily all the way up to the Ninth Pass, they would have had to start out at a couple feet long :rofl:

[Ryuu]

Me too. If they had grown steadily all the way up to the Ninth Pass, they would have had to start out at a couple feet long :rofl:You're forgetting the initial inflation at the Beginning of the Big Bang :razz:

[Kath]

Ha very ha.

:roll:

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

You're forgetting the initial inflation at the Beginning of the Big Bang :razz:

Obviously it didn't work like that if it was going right up to the 9th Pass :p Remember that the Oldtimers (only 400 years before that!) were supposedly half the size of the modern ones. I still think THAT much of a difference is ridiculous, I prefer to think of it as more like a third larger, but that's not the point. If they had been growing constantly, over 2500 turns when 400 Turns can produce doubled sizes? Obviously the inbreeding had a part in that, but still. It makes much more sense for them to achieve their full programmed potential within the first two or three Passes, especially since larger, faster, stronger dragons were NEEDED ASAP. Why would Kitti Ping string it out over a couple thousand years?

I think they were at the full expected size in Moreta and had been long before that, and then they suddenly had a burst in size toward the 9th Pass. Aivas did say that they had exceeded the parameters, so they were NOT meant to be that large.

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

No, Mnementh was supposedly nearly twice the size of any Oldtimer dragon. Though this is only an observation by Toric, so of course it's not exact, but to be THAT noticeably bigger, it must be close.

I seriously doubt Ramoth was only 45 feet. If the oldtimers WERE only half the size, that'd make the programmed size to be 22.5 feet. That's only slightly larger than the first generation! I think that 42 feet was the programmed size, and then they grew a third larger (Toric could have mistaken this for almost twice the size, with some exaggeration) to be 63 feet.

[Lady Arwyn]

Anne has stated repeatedly that Ramoth is 45 feet long, the same size as the largest T-Rex ever found.

I still think the "twice the size" thing is BS. WIth a little extra legnth comes notably more bulk. Also, twice as large does NOT mean the same as twice as long. Maybe they are also heavier-built, like the difference between a 15hh bulldog-type Quarter Horse which can weigh 1500 lbs and a 15hh Egyptian Arabian which weighs about 900lbs.

[Kath]

Why does "twice as large" have to mean twice as long?

If it's twice as large in terms of mass/volume, then the length of the oldtime queen dragons will be closer to 2/3 Ramoth's length, rather than half her length. 30 feet for the oldtime queens is still pretty substantial, and far more plausible than only a little over 20 feet.

[Lady Arwyn]

I figure the Oldtimer golds were in the small end of Anne's range of sizes for golds, 38-39 feet long, compared to Ramoth's 45 feet. That's a seven-foot legnth difference, which is quite alot, Making Ramoth almost a fifth longer than the Oldtimers.

The other Benden golds, Ramoth's daughters, granddaughters, etc, would be in the upper "normal" range, 42-43 feet. A 40 foot gold could be an unusually large Oldtimer or a smallish Benden, or the product of a Benden bronze and an Oldtimer gold.

The difference between Ramoth and her daughters would not be too notable, but Ramoth compared to the Oldtimer golds would seem positively huge, especially if she has a heavier build.

[Kath]

I figure the Oldtimer golds were in the small end of Anne's range of sizes for golds, 38-39 feet long, compared to Ramoth's 45 feet. That's a seven-foot legnth difference, which is quite alot, Making Ramoth almost a fifth longer than the Oldtimers.

...and in terms of mass/volume, they'd be only 63% of Ramoth. Easy to see how simple it would be for people to say "half the size" on that basis.

[Ryuu]

Why does "twice as large" have to mean twice as long?

If it's twice as large in terms of mass/volume, then the length of the oldtime queen dragons will be closer to 2/3 Ramoth's length, rather than half her length. 30 feet for the oldtime queens is still pretty substantial, and far more plausible than only a little over 20 feet.Because we don't say that a 5' person is twice as large as someone with the same build but only 4' tall--but by volume, it would be correct.

the cube-root of 2 is 1.2599, and 1/cube-root is 0.7937

so a creature twice the bulk of the smaller will only be a quarter longer...

or the smaller individual will be about 4/5ths the length of the larger.

It's not obvious that the 5' tall person will have twice the volume as a 4' person. However, if we put an 8' tall person next to the 4' person, we WOULD say that one is twice as big--even if the REAL volume would be 8 times.

[Kath]

I dunno. For large objects, say, a house, it's pretty obvious that shrinking the individual dimensions by 50% doesn't lead to something half the size, but rather something a lot smaller than hlaf the size.

Your eyes/brain are better at judging these things than you think.

[Ryuu]

I dunno. For large objects, say, a house, it's pretty obvious that shrinking the individual dimensions by 50% doesn't lead to something half the size, but rather something a lot smaller than hlaf the size.

Your eyes/brain are better at judging these things than you think.Comparing two similar objects with simple geometries (box for a house or cone for a tree), it's far easier to judge.

But when there are things like legs, arms, wings, necks, and tails sticking out, it messes with our perceptions on just how big or small something is:yes:

[Kath]

I disagree. Having owned a 5kg cat and a 3kg cat at the same time, it's very easy indeed. The dimensions weren't too disimilar, but the actual size difference was pretty clear, and you certainly didn't need to do anymore than look at them in order to guess the correct ratio.

Tell you what, let's aim for a compromise.

Some people can spot the difference, others can't. The latter just have a lousy sense of spatial awareness. ;)

[Ryuu]

I disagree. Having owned a 5kg cat and a 3kg cat at the same time, it's very easy indeed. The dimensions weren't too disimilar, but the actual size difference was pretty clear, and you certainly didn't need to do anymore than look at them in order to guess the correct ratio.

Tell you what, let's aim for a compromise.

Some people can spot the difference, others can't. The latter just have a lousy sense of spatial awareness. ;)This is true :yes:

[Aurelia]

I figure the Oldtimer golds were in the small end of Anne's range of sizes for golds, 38-39 feet long, compared to Ramoth's 45 feet. That's a seven-foot legnth difference, which is quite alot, Making Ramoth almost a fifth longer than the Oldtimers.

The other Benden golds, Ramoth's daughters, granddaughters, etc, would be in the upper "normal" range, 42-43 feet. A 40 foot gold could be an unusually large Oldtimer or a smallish Benden, or the product of a Benden bronze and an Oldtimer gold.

The difference between Ramoth and her daughters would not be too notable, but Ramoth compared to the Oldtimer golds would seem positively huge, especially if she has a heavier build.

The seven-foot difference actually is more like 15.5% of the total 45 feet: it's a bit less than 30%, but, in size, measurements like that make a difference.

[Lady Arwyn]

Hey, I was doing good to come even that close. Even simple math tends to make my head go splodey.

But we were doing it in reverse from each other. I was going from Oldtimer dragon to Ramoth, whereas you are figuring from Ramoth to Oldtimer.

7x5 = 35 so 7 feet is 1/5th of 35. 38 is just 3 feet longer. Too much more math for my head to figure out the exact so I say "almost."
That's how I figured Ramoth is "almost" 1/5th larger than the Oldtimer golds.
And that's about the most complicated math my poor brain can deal with.

[Aurelia]

Hey, I was doing good to come even that close. Even simple math tends to make my head go splodey.

But we were doing it in reverse from each other. I was going from Oldtimer dragon to Ramoth, whereas you are figuring from Ramoth to Oldtimer.

7x5 = 35 so 7 feet is 1/5th of 35. 38 is just 3 feet longer. Too much more math for my head to figure out the exact so I say "almost."
That's how I figured Ramoth is "almost" 1/5th larger than the Oldtimer golds.
And that's about the most complicated math my poor brain can deal with.

Oops. :blush2: Sorry. :hugs:

[Kalimalian]

Bronze-Dragonrider, would you mind if I used your drawing of dragons in cubits at my Weyr (with credit of course!)? I'm going to measure them in cubits there after having looked at all your wonderfully helpful drawings.

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

Of course! Thank you very much :D

[Kalimalian]

Thanks! =)

[Madrigal]

One thing I thought of (might've been mentioned, but I'm not seeing it): Isn't there a point where some dragon's eye is described as being the size of someone's head? I think it might've been Ramoth or Mnementh in DF...

If that's the case, it might narrow the size range down a bit.

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

Yup, but I can't be bothered to hunt the quote :laugh: That seems to correspond with the reference to Ramoth's head being 6 feet (though it does not specify whether this is in height of length, here I'll go for length.) and it fits in with a queen being somewhere in the 40-60 foot range. Hard to pin down though, since eye sizes in proportion to the head can vary with interpretation.

[Aurelia]

One thing I thought of (might've been mentioned, but I'm not seeing it): Isn't there a point where some dragon's eye is described as being the size of someone's head? I think it might've been Ramoth or Mnementh in DF...

If that's the case, it might narrow the size range down a bit.

Here ya go.

DF on.:

"By the First Egg, girl, you've power in you to spare when
you can turn a dragonman, all unwitting, to do your bidding.
Ah, but never again, for now I am on guard against you."
Mnementh crooned approvingly, the sound a soft rumble
in his throat. He arched his neck so that one eye was turned
directly on the girl, gleaming in the darkness of the court.
F'lar noticed with detached pride that she neither flinched
nor blanched at the proximity of an eye greater than her
own head.

Also, something helpful (different)...

DF on.:

Mnementh arched his neck, angling his head so that his
chin rested on the ground. Mnementh's many faceted eyes,
on a level with F'lar's head, fastened with disconcerting in-
terest on the approaching party. The dragons could never
understand why they generated such abject fear in common
folk. At only one point in his life span would a dragon at-
tack a human and that could be excused on the grounds of
simple ignorance. F'lar could not explain to the dragon the
politics behind the necessity of inspiring awe in the holders,
lord and craftsman alike. He could only observe that the fear
and apprehension showing in the faces of the advancing
squad which troubled Mnementh was oddly pleasing to him,
F'lar.

[Ryuu]

Of course, by now, Bronzie should be aware of that last quote -- I've pointed it out to him several times :giggle:

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

Let's just face it, the size can be pretty much whatever we want it to be, since anyone can find a quote to support their vision with all the inconsistencies ;)

[Ryuu]

True! :yes:

[Brenda]

And yet we persist...

[Ryuu]

And yet we persist...Because the larger size estimates (~90-120' for Ramoth & Mnementh, 30-40' for Carenth, Faranth, and Ruth) solves more of the published descriptions than the smaller estimates (30' Ramoth & Mnementh, 10' for Carenth, Faranth, and Ruth).

The inconsistancies come from Anne's revised estimates given in her interviews NOT matching the published accounts.

A 30' long Mnementh couldn't possibly have a head long enough to look F'lar in the eye with his chin on the ground while still having a body large enough to support that head--and a 10' Ruth could not possibly hold four young adults without somebody hanging over his head and tail while he was flying to Landing.

[Mage]

Ryuu, if they were that big, I can't imagine how anyone would get on their dragon even with riding straps dangling and the dragon's help. There's never a rope ladder in the descriptions. Also, it would be very hard to sit on something that large. And, Anne changes around her descriptions so much that it's highly difficult to know which size is the proper size.

I have a guess, however, that the largest dragons are no more than ten feet tall at the withers. It may not sound big, but Pernese dragons are deeper-chested, sturdier, and much longer-backed than a horse, according to Anne. Also, ten feet tall at the shoulders, plus the height of the neck and head and presumably higher arch to the back, is going to be extremely large indeed. I have a sapling tree in my yard about that tall, and even though I'm fairly short, and the tree is obviously not tall for a tree, it's big--big enough that I can imagine it would be difficult even with help to get on top of an animal that big. I would guess that's about Ramoth's height, in which case, including her head, neck, lengthy back and tail, 42' isn't that bad of an estimate for size. It also is in no way small. Even a fifteen-foot-long animal, one of the major estimated sizes for Ruth, is pretty huge, though likely at least five to six feet of that is tail.

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

Because the larger size estimates (~90-120' for Ramoth & Mnementh, 30-40' for Carenth, Faranth, and Ruth) solves more of the published descriptions than the smaller estimates (30' Ramoth & Mnementh, 10' for Carenth, Faranth, and Ruth).

The inconsistancies come from Anne's revised estimates given in her interviews NOT matching the published accounts.

A 30' long Mnementh couldn't possibly have a head long enough to look F'lar in the eye with his chin on the ground while still having a body large enough to support that head--and a 10' Ruth could not possibly hold four young adults without somebody hanging over his head and tail while he was flying to Landing.

Ah but how do you know which of the quotes are "right"? If you base your entire theory on one or two quotes, there will be others that contradict it. What about those? Why are those "wrong" when that specific one you mention is right? It could be, but with so many conflicting pieces of evidence, it's hard to filter through and see which should be most accurate. I just go by the majority of ones that corroborate, and adding some logistics (eg. I dismiss the larger sizes because a dragon with a 200 foot wingspan is never going to escape many Thread-scores; how could they possibly survive for a week on just a few herdbeasts and wherries, how do the riders jump down 20 feet from the neck without injuring themselves, how could they clean such a hulking mass in just a few hours, the list goes on...)

I like the sizes of 40 feet for the programmed size, with 60 for Ramoth because it fits a good deal of the quotes, such as the originals being 3x smaller (this is if you're going by length) at 20 feet long, with Ruth slightly larger at 23-25 (this supports all the size references in the books to them). Yet he'd still be smaller than greens because all dragons in that time would be bumped up a good deal rather than the programmed 20-25 foot long green. I still think it's very possible to get 4 people on a dragon this size if they're strapped on along his back.
With Ramoth at 60 feet, that's proportionate to the "six foot dragon head" (if you're going by length rather than height, no specification is given), as well as the eye being the size of a person's head. Now, if you're going by her full length, this tosses out the reference of the oldtimers' dragons being half the size of the 9th Passers, but it does fit if you're going by mass. However if you do that, then it throws out the sizes of the Originals being 3x smaller.

Quotes that are discarded: Mnementh's chin on the ground looking F'lar in the eye - he'd have to be 90-100 feet for that, Ruth being "half the size of his peers", unless this refers to the larger-end colors as well. Ramoth's size at hatching, her head larger than Lessa's torso. The reference in Moreta to 50 dragonlength sprint distances for runnerbeasts. For 25 feet to a dragonlength, this is FAR too short a distance, and only makes sense if it's 25 meters.

[Lady Arwyn]

If a dragonlegnth is 25 feet, and the race is 50 dragonlengths, then the race would be *just short* a quarter mile, about the same distance a Quarter Horse runs for a sprint in horse racing. If it was in meters, that distance would be more than 3/4 mile, which is not a sprint. This absolutely confirms the 20-45 foot size range.

[Mage]

Ah but how do you know which of the quotes are "right"? If you base your entire theory on one or two quotes, there will be others that contradict it. What about those? Why are those "wrong" when that specific one you mention is right? It could be, but with so many conflicting pieces of evidence, it's hard to filter through and see which should be most accurate. I just go by the majority of ones that corroborate, and adding some logistics (eg. I dismiss the larger sizes because a dragon with a 200 foot wingspan is never going to escape many Thread-scores; how could they possibly survive for a week on just a few herdbeasts and wherries, how do the riders jump down 20 feet from the neck without injuring themselves, how could they clean such a hulking mass in just a few hours, the list goes on...)

I like the sizes of 40 feet for the programmed size, with 60 for Ramoth because it fits a good deal of the quotes, such as the originals being 3x smaller (this is if you're going by length) at 20 feet long, with Ruth slightly larger at 23-25 (this supports all the size references in the books to them). Yet he'd still be smaller than greens because all dragons in that time would be bumped up a good deal rather than the programmed 20-25 foot long green. I still think it's very possible to get 4 people on a dragon this size if they're strapped on along his back.
With Ramoth at 60 feet, that's proportionate to the "six foot dragon head" (if you're going by length rather than height, no specification is given), as well as the eye being the size of a person's head. Now, if you're going by her full length, this tosses out the reference of the oldtimers' dragons being half the size of the 9th Passers, but it does fit if you're going by mass. However if you do that, then it throws out the sizes of the Originals being 3x smaller.

Quotes that are discarded: Mnementh's chin on the ground looking F'lar in the eye - he'd have to be 90-100 feet for that, Ruth being "half the size of his peers", unless this refers to the larger-end colors as well. Ramoth's size at hatching, her head larger than Lessa's torso. The reference in Moreta to 50 dragonlength sprint distances for runnerbeasts. For 25 feet to a dragonlength, this is FAR too short a distance, and only makes sense if it's 25 meters.


I don't buy Ruth being 23-25 feet long, simply because he's compared in height to a runnerbeast. Most horses are a little over five feet tall--race horses might make it to six, and a few draft horses have been over seven. Though dragons' length includes length from nosetip to tailtip, and dragons are longer in the back than horses, I don't see how you could get a much bigger figure than maybe 15 feet in length--twenty at the maximum. I think the point of Ruth carrying four people, and straining to get airborne, was to show just how special and awesome a dragon he is (:roll:) to carry as many people as, say, a brown or bronze could, despite his size. If you presume that a green is still twice as long as Ruth, and Ruth is 15 feet, that means the greens are at least 30 feet on average. I don't think that's right either.

I couldn't help you with the length, but I suspect that the tallest dragons stand a bit under that ten feet I mentioned before. From what I understand in the novels, riders climb up using their dragons' foreleg as a step, then pull themselves the rest of the way using a dangling riding strap (perhaps the belt strap). As this appears standard practice for all dragons in the novels, the gold dragons must be short enough in height to allow for putting on the riding straps to begin with, and for someone with a leg up to pull to the base of their necks with the aid of a dangling strap. My estimate is that the biggest dragons (the golds) are almost certainly somewhere in the eight-to-ten-feet-tall range.

As we know that Pernese dragons are shorter in the foreleg and longer in the back than horses, their height may actually be a key factor in figuring out how big a gold dragon is. From there, you can go down the scale to figure out the sizes of the other colors--and greens, incidentally, are supposedly either half the length, or half the size, of a gold. If they're half the size, but not half the length, the size differences of all dragons might be far less than we've all been assuming. Again, I refer to the standard mounting procedure of dragons. Much as I favor the concept of the huge length difference between a gold and a green, I have to admit it would make sense if ultimately the length gaps weren't that huge. The difference would definitely still be noticeable.

Actually, what with Lessa's height constantly mentioned as being very petite, if you assume she was around five feet tall (and she might have been very short indeed, at perhaps four to four and a half, but for now let's assume five), probably the tallest Ramoth could be and still be mounted by her rider without a ladder would be ten feet. Lessa would not be leaping from her dragon's back, however, if she were that tall. She'd have to climb part of the way off first.

Ruth being little taller than a runnerbeast, let's assume he was around the six- to seven-foot-tall range at his withers--as I mentioned before, with longer hind legs, the rear is going to be taller than the withers--plus if a dragon's head is carried high, that'll add a few feet of height. I'll say six and a half. That'd be a very tall horse. That means the smallest of greens would probably be at least seven and a half to eight feet tall, so a 20-25 foot length actually sounds reasonable, though it doesn't allow for a super-long neck or tail, considering she'd probably have a back around ten to twelve (maybe 13, but that's probably stretching it) feet long. That allows anywhere from 10 to 15 feet of head, neck, and tail, in either case. It may look small in a drawing, but just imagine meeting a creature that big, particularly a predator. That's larger than an elephant in length! Plus, Pernese dragons are supposed to be very sturdy-looking.

My conclusion: If there's an error in the sizes-in-feet, it's probably only in the length of the tail, and more than likely you'd only need to add from one to three feet--five maximum--to each dragon color to get a reasonable tail length. As for how multiple passengers fit... well, I'd say if there are more than two people on the dragon, the extra passengers ride on the back somehow, except with larger dragons--where three or possibly even four might fit on the neck.

One final possibility: If dragons carry their heads high except in flight (like many long-necked birds) or preparation for flight, they may be measured for length with their heads held up, rather than as if they were stretched out.

I also have a possible question: If dragons' forelegs are shorter than horses', proportionately, could their backs proportionately be as long as a long-backed horse (like a thoroughbred), but seem shorter because a dragon is shorter at the withers? Or how much longer is a dragon's back than a horse's?

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

If a dragonlegnth is 25 feet, and the race is 50 dragonlengths, then the race would be *just short* a quarter mile, about the same distance a Quarter Horse runs for a sprint in horse racing. If it was in meters, that distance would be more than 3/4 mile, which is not a sprint. This absolutely confirms the 20-45 foot size range.

Oops! I know nothing of horse racing, I was just going by what someone else had told me. Well then, that's even more good news! :D

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

I don't buy Ruth being 23-25 feet long, simply because he's compared in height to a runnerbeast. Most horses are a little over five feet tall--race horses might make it to six, and a few draft horses have been over seven. Though dragons' length includes length from nosetip to tailtip, and dragons are longer in the back than horses, I don't see how you could get a much bigger figure than maybe 15 feet in length--twenty at the maximum. I think the point of Ruth carrying four people, and straining to get airborne, was to show just how special and awesome a dragon he is (:roll:) to carry as many people as, say, a brown or bronze could, despite his size. If you presume that a green is still twice as long as Ruth, and Ruth is 15 feet, that means the greens are at least 30 feet on average. I don't think that's right either.
Remember that Ruth is larger than Carenath, and even he was about 5 1/2 feet high at the shoulder. So, with a body that is longer than a horse's, that makes the body about 7-8 feet long, a tail the same length, and maybe 6 feet for all the neck and head. In total, that's 20-22 feet long. With Ruth larger than that, (and he was about half to a full head taller than any runnerbeast) 23-25 feet seems right.

I couldn't help you with the length, but I suspect that the tallest dragons stand a bit under that ten feet I mentioned before. From what I understand in the novels, riders climb up using their dragons' foreleg as a step, then pull themselves the rest of the way using a dangling riding strap (perhaps the belt strap). As this appears standard practice for all dragons in the novels, the gold dragons must be short enough in height to allow for putting on the riding straps to begin with, and for someone with a leg up to pull to the base of their necks with the aid of a dangling strap. My estimate is that the biggest dragons (the golds) are almost certainly somewhere in the eight-to-ten-feet-tall range.
I agree. Though with the larger 9th Pass dragons like Mnementh and Ramoth, I think it could be pushed up to 12 feet.

Actually, what with Lessa's height constantly mentioned as being very petite, if you assume she was around five feet tall (and she might have been very short indeed, at perhaps four to four and a half, but for now let's assume five), probably the tallest Ramoth could be and still be mounted by her rider without a ladder would be ten feet. Lessa would not be leaping from her dragon's back, however, if she were that tall. She'd have to climb part of the way off first.
It depends on how dragons' shoulders work too. If they are able to lift their arms out sideways (if their forelegs are structured like a horse they can't do this) the rider could walk all along the arm to the shoulder and then pull themselves up to the neck, like on the Dreamcast Pern game, rather than just jumping up from the lifted forearm.

As for how multiple passengers fit... well, I'd say if there are more than two people on the dragon, the extra passengers ride on the back somehow, except with larger dragons--where three or possibly even four might fit on the neck.
In Dragonquest, there was a green with three riders, and in Moreta, bronze Nabeth was able to carry as many as six. I'm still trying to figure out how they could manage to strap on six people to a 40 foot dragon... while there's certainly room enough, it's just securing them along the back without them bouncing around everywhere in flight. It would actually be easier to mount four on Ruth, because his back isn't so long and they could have an anchor around his tail to hold them down more. But with a back that's at LEAST 12 feet long, this method would be useless.

One final possibility: If dragons carry their heads high except in flight (like many long-necked birds) or preparation for flight, they may be measured for length with their heads held up, rather than as if they were stretched out.
This is one thing I've wondered as well. But since if their heads were held upright, the length could vary depending on its position, so I've always thought it would be the full out-stretched length.

I also have a possible question: If dragons' forelegs are shorter than horses', proportionately, could their backs proportionately be as long as a long-backed horse (like a thoroughbred), but seem shorter because a dragon is shorter at the withers? Or how much longer is a dragon's back than a horse's?
It said in Dragonsdawn that Carenath was longer in the body than Sean's horse Cricket, so even with the shorter forelegs, their backs would still be proportionately longer than a horse's. By how much isn't mentioned, so that's left to personal interpretation.

[Ryuu]

Ryuu, if they were that big, I can't imagine how anyone would get on their dragon even with riding straps dangling and the dragon's help. There's never a rope ladder in the descriptions. Also, it would be very hard to sit on something that large. And, Anne changes around her descriptions so much that it's highly difficult to know which size is the proper size.

I have a guess, however, that the largest dragons are no more than ten feet tall at the withers. It may not sound big, but Pernese dragons are deeper-chested, sturdier, and much longer-backed than a horse, according to Anne. Also, ten feet tall at the shoulders, plus the height of the neck and head and presumably higher arch to the back, is going to be extremely large indeed. I have a sapling tree in my yard about that tall, and even though I'm fairly short, and the tree is obviously not tall for a tree, it's big--big enough that I can imagine it would be difficult even with help to get on top of an animal that big. I would guess that's about Ramoth's height, in which case, including her head, neck, lengthy back and tail, 42' isn't that bad of an estimate for size. It also is in no way small. Even a fifteen-foot-long animal, one of the major estimated sizes for Ruth, is pretty huge, though likely at least five to six feet of that is tail.Novik's dragons are MUCH larger than even the biggest estimates of the Pernese natives--yet they get up okay ;)

The biggest problem with the small sizes is still the fact the only riding location on the Pernese is the neck--because their wings run from their shoulders to the middle of their thighs--yet to have them carry the things described in the books would necessitate treating them as a horse that can fly--BUT CAN'T HAVE ANY WINGS!

I can understand people's comparison to a horse--getting upon a horse 20 hands high, for example, would require a scaffolding. But a horse normally DOSEN'T cooperate to let a rider get on! However, the Pernese natives DO! They help be giving assist with their arms as well as dipping their chests lower to the ground.

Think of having a forklift at your command sitting by that tree you're using for your example and then you'd see what I'm talking about.

Ah but how do you know which of the quotes are "right"? If you base your entire theory on one or two quotes, there will be others that contradict it. What about those? Why are those "wrong" when that specific one you mention is right? It could be, but with so many conflicting pieces of evidence, it's hard to filter through and see which should be most accurate. I just go by the majority of ones that corroborate, and adding some logistics (eg. I dismiss the larger sizes because a dragon with a 200 foot wingspan is never going to escape many Thread-scores; how could they possibly survive for a week on just a few herdbeasts and wherries, how do the riders jump down 20 feet from the neck without injuring themselves, how could they clean such a hulking mass in just a few hours, the list goes on...) Most of the stuff PUBLISHED don't support the smaller sizes.

Okay, but you want to point out, how can anything survive for a week on a herdbeast--on that basis, they couldn't be much larger than a lion! Lions in the wild comp down on a wilderbeast, eat it for a few days, a couple days to digest, & then they're back out hunting the next one :shrug:

Ever hear of a slide? Jump off a 10' high platform and you're just as liable to break a leg as if it were 20'. I can see F'lar or Lessa sliding off their dragons' shoulders, and Ramoth and Mnementh even bringing their arms into