Red Star

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

Just how big would the red star appear in Pern's skies? The covers always depict it like a big moon, but I've always thought it was described more like a twinkling star, but very bright, and bigger than any other visible star to make in unmistakable in the sky. But then it needed to be big enough so they could see swirls of clouds on it through the simple telescope.

[TamTam]

I always thought that it looked like a star that was red, hence, The Red Star. *shrug*

[NeouofPern]

I always thought of it as a red star about double the size of a normal one. The way it brackets in the stones just led me to believe that.

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

Well it definately can't be the size as suggested on the covers. "A fleck or red in a cold night sky, a drop of blood to guide them by..." doesn't sound that big. It must be bigger in appearance than mars though, to give it a definate red look, and more of an ominous feel.

[maiken]

I've always thought of it to be about twice or three times the size Mars is in our skies, given the difference in equalatoral distance((or that Mars is farther from us than the Red Star from Pern ;) )) I have always figured that was the size of it, no matter what the covers of the books say.

To be able to be bracketed in the Star Stones, it would have to be smaller than out moon is in our sky, but I suppose I could be wrong. It just doesn't seem Scientifically probable for the Red Star to be that big, though I suppose It could be. The pictures of moons and stars from other planets appear closer to them than they are to us, thus making them take up a larger area in the sky.


But them again, I suppose a 15 year old doesn't know what she's talking about with space and scientific and astronomical theories, though I do think that my ideas would see scientifically probable.

In other words, the way I think is the way I think. :roll:

[Larry O-G]

Well it definately can't be the size as suggested on the covers. "A fleck or red in a cold night sky, a drop of blood to guide them by..." doesn't sound that big. It must be bigger in appearance than mars though, to give it a definate red look, and more of an ominous feel.

Well :roll: I for one would not judge anything by what the cover looks like :banghead: the artist haven't got a clue :eek: No not ONE :disguise:

[Mausey]

The books say the Red Star gets closer and closer to Pern as it orbits, so when it first appears, (well actually it doesn't appear, it just starts getting more visible) it would be rather small and easily bracketted in the Star Stones. As it gets closer it might appear or even get as close as our moon. That might explain why they can see it so clearly and there's a reference to the red star dwindling as the pass ends.

[Greenrider Tresa]

Big enough to be seen with the naked eye, anyhow...I always saw it as at least moon-sized or larger. But then, that's all I an see in the sky, even when I do use my telescope. Except for the time I saw an advertising blimp...
Not just pollution and lights in my case.




Tresa

[ChrisG]

Oh goody, Pernese celestial mechanics happens to be a pet project of mine. :)

The size of the Red Star is given in DE/RSR: From DragonsEye/Red Star Rising
A tip of red appeared just over the bottom of the Eye a breath or two later. A redness that seemed to pulsate. It wasn’t a very large planet—from this distance, it wouldn’t be, Clisser thought, though they had the measurements of it from the Yokohama observations. It was approximately the same size as Earth’s old sister, Venus. And about as hospitable. Venus is quite clearly visible in the morning and evening sky for about half the year—when it’s not in front of or behind the sun (opposition or conjunction). However, Venus is always within about 160 million miles of Earth (258 million km), and usually much closer. The Red Star, according to DDawn, intrudes to within the orbit of Mars at perihelion: From DragonsDawn
“Quite likely,” Kenjo said. “It does seem to have an enormously eccentric orbit, more cometary than planetary, though its mass indicates its planetary size. Look.” He tapped out a sequence that brought up the satellites of Pern’s star system in relation to their primary and to one another. “It computes to come in farther than the usual fourth planet position and actually intrudes on the Oort cloud at aphelion. This is supposed to be an old system, or so the EEC report leads one to believe, and that planet ought to have a more conventional orbit.” While the Red Star could get quite close to Pern—astronomically speaking—it’s still no where near as near as the moon. And it’s only going be at that distance for a matter of about a month. It takes the Red Star 250 Turns to complete one orbit, and if its orbit is stretched out as much as DDawn says, then according to my good friend Isaac Newton, it’d be screaming by at a tremendous velocity when it got to the inner system.

According to all of the books before DBlood, the Star Stone sighting was performed at Winter Solstice when the rising sun sat atop the Finger Rock and the Red Star was bracketed by the Eye Rock. In order for that to work, the Red Star’s orbit would have to coincide perfectly with Pern’s orbit; if it took 250 Turns and 3 months, then the Red Star would be out of position, and wouldn’t be in position until Pern’s springtime, at which time Pern would be out of position. A matter of months might not sound too significant when thinking about 250 Turns, but remember how fast the Red Star is moving at this point. DragonsBlood makes the alignment a little more plausible by having the Finger Rock point at the Eye Rock, I can only assume that it now has nothing to do with Winter Solstice; that the sighting can be performed at any time of the Turn. But it is still hugely unlikely that the Red Star would visible to the naked eye thirty Turns into the Pass, as SoP suggests it is. And in DF it was definitely implied that Lessa and the Oldtimers used the position of the Red Star to time their way forward, though here I’m inclined to believe, as others have suggested, that they must’ve also used some of the other planets as well.

Personally, my favorite solution for the Red Star’s behavior is also the first model that I came up with, having just finished reading DragonFlight. It’s generally accepted that it takes Pern 366 days to complete one orbit. If the Red Star had a similar near-circular orbit as Pern and took just 367.4 days to orbit Rukbat, then Pern and the Red Star would move in and out of phase on a 250 Turn cycle. That would certainly explain how the Red Star could be visible for so long, how it always seems to be in the East, and possibly even how it’s gravity could affect Pern as much as it seems to. But that’s no longer a valid model, as the Red Star’s orbit is definitely comet-like.

So, how does the Red Star appear in Pern’s skies? From the descriptions I’d say about as bright as Venus or Jupiter, only with a reddish tint … possibly like a brighter Betelgeuse. Also, consider that sunlight will be reflecting off of that huge trail of Thread ovoids that the Red Star drags behind.

[BeckyMildan]

I thought that the Winter Solistice thing was more of a check to see how close the Red Star was getting and that the rising sun on top of the finger rock was to give them the time of day to look. Didn't it say in Dragonseye that you stood at the finger rock with the chin at the height of the rock and looked through the eye to get the position of the Red Star. When the Red Star was seen through the eye then you knew that thread was due to start falling soon. As for size and visibility I also always thought of it looking like Venus too.

[Larry O-G]

:evil: How about more like Mars? ;)

[ChrisG]

Mars, while it is red, is also rather hard to spot unless you know where look. You can't help but notice Jupiter in the night sky. Oh, and as for the exagerrated size of the Red Star on the book covers and comparing that to the size of the moon, try this--look at your thumb from an arm's length. That's approximately two degrees, and is enough to cover the moon. Looks bigger, don't it?

And back to the Star Stones… there is this reference using the Finger Rock as a viewing position: From DragonsEye/Red Star Rising
“THAT’S IT!” Kalvi cried. He made a final twitch to the iron circle on its pedestal. “I got it. Cement it in place now. Quickly. You there at the finger rock. Eyeball the phenomenon. All of you should see it bracketed by this circle.” But just a little bit before this, it mentions the sighting it is performed at winter solstice: Kalvi was still fiddling with the design of what he was calling the Eye Rock, which would bracket the Red Planet at dawn on Winter Solstice. His main problem was adjusting the pointer … the position at a distance from the eye itself at which the viewer would stand to see the planet. And a couple quotes from DF: From DragonFlight
First, the Finger Rock on which the rising sun balanced briefly at dawn at the winter solstice. Then, two dragon lengths behind it, the rectangular, enormous Star Stone, chest-high to a tall man, its polished surface incised by two arrows, one pointing due east toward the Finger Rock, the other slightly north of due east, aimed directly at the Eye Rock, so ingeniously and immovably set into the Star Stone.
One dawn, in the not too distant future, he would look through the Eye Rock and meet the baleful blink of the Red Star. And then…

~~~

“Tell me,” she (Lessa) said after a long silence,” did the sun touch the Finger Rock before the Red Star was bracketed in the Eye Rock or after?”
“Matter of fact, I’m not sure, as I did not see it myself … the concurrence lasts only a few moments but the two are supposed to be simultaneous.” But then you also have the song:
The Finger points,
At an Eye blood-red,
Alert the Weyrs,
To sear the Thread.
So who really knows?

[Larry O-G]

Chris I was thinking in terms of the color red "Mars Red"
but the Red star would start out quite small and grow bigger the nearer its approach to Pern :D

[Mausey]

But that doesn't answer the question of how they could so clearly see cloud formations on the surface. One rider sees a girl braiding her hair and very clear land formations, that is either an extremely powerful telescope, or the Red Star is rather close.

[Mayhem]

When Mars was on close proximity to Earth last year, with my telescope I could see clouds on Mars....I have a 114mm reflector, they tend to be the best for galaxial viewing. As far as I can tell, the Pernese had refractors, which are best for planetary viewing, so they would have got a better image than I would get with my 'scope.
Dunno if this helps, it was clear in my head what I meant, but not sure if others will understand me.
*grins*

*EDIT*
I could be wrong about what each kind of telescope does, I am having a bad head day today...... :erm:

[Dux]

I figured it appeared to be the size of our moon. No particular reason though.

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

Heres one more thing that may suggest its size - M'hall leaned back on Brianth and gazed up into the darkening sky. Nothing. Some stars had started twinkling and the Red Star, which had been invisible for months in daylight, was definately fading in intensity.
To me, that suggests that it had once been visible even in daylight. So thats gotta be pretty close and bright to be able to see during the day. Other planets are never visible untill night, but our moon is somtimes visible during the day. So maybe its somewhere between the appearance on a star and the moon.

[Larry O-G]

A planet as small as Mars would look like the moon if were to come close to earths orbit. :roll: It all depends on the path of the planet... coming close enough to drop thread would be perty close.

[ChrisG]

Okay, let's see ... that M'hall quote from DBlood was from the 50th Turn of the Pass, right? Assuming the Pass started when the Red Star was at perihelion (closest approach to the sun) then fifty Turns later, it'd be approximately 59AU away. Pluto, by way of comparison, orbits at an average distance of 40AU from the sun. In order to be seen at all at that distance--day or night--the Red Star would almost have to be an actual star. Now, what might be visible, depending on how dense it is, is the trail of Thread ovoids following the Red Star back out into the Oort cloud; the Thread ovoids follow the same orbit as the Red Star, and I don't imagine that every single one manages to find its way to Pern ... but I can't say if Thread ovoids would appear red.

[Larry O-G]

Okay, let's see ... that M'hall quote from DBlood was from the 50th Turn of the Pass, right? Assuming the Pass started when the Red Star was at perihelion (closest approach to the sun) then fifty Turns later, it'd be approximately 59AU away. Pluto, by way of comparison, orbits at an average distance of 40AU from the sun. In order to be seen at all at that distance--day or night--the Red Star would almost have to be an actual star. Now, what might be visible, depending on how dense it is, is the trail of Thread ovoids following the Red Star back out into the Oort cloud; the Thread ovoids follow the same orbit as the Red Star, and I don't imagine that every single one manages to find its way to Pern ... but I can't say if Thread ovoids would appear red.
ChrisG
You are assuming a much faster orbit speed than indicated in the story.
One orbit takes 250 years so to reach 59AU from its perihelion would take 125 years not 50. Where did you get 59AU???

[ChrisG]

Well, okay, I'm assuming that the physics model in my program is accurate, and also assuming that at perihelion the Red Star would be midway between the orbits of Earth and Mars. 59AU is approximately where it'd be 50 Turns after perihelion. Aphelion, which does occur 125 Turns after perihelion, puts it at about 78AU. The orbital velocity is not constant; it speeds up as it approaches the sun, and slows down as it withdraws. At aphelion it's barely moving at all.

[Wolfegar]

Here's another thought. With the thread ovoids following it, I should think the Red Star would appear comet-like to a viewer on Pern when it's closer to Rukbat.

[Larry O-G]

Here's another thought. With the thread ovoids following it, I should think the Red Star would appear comet-like to a viewer on Pern when it's closer to Rukbat.
Interesting thought if the oviods reflect light as they trail the red ploanet. :roll:

[ChrisG]

That's kinda what I was getting at in a couple of my posts. I still haven't quite figured out how Thread manages to get from the Red Star's orbit to Pern. I suppose that the solar wind might push it outward into different orbits, scattering it all across the system...

But, if any Thread continues to trail the Red Star as it makes its retreat, then there may well be another Pass after the ninth. Any Thread ovoids that make it out of the system will continue in the same orbit, and will return a couple hundred Turns later--with or without the Red Star leading the way. Though without the Red Star, the trail wouldn't be replenished. Would still be quite a nasty surprise.

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

That could well be true... and it makes me think of Aivas's attempt at genocide with 'Project Overkill' and infected it in the trips between times to the Red Star. It obviously didn't work since thread still returned, so why did they waste all that time attempting it?

[ChrisG]

Ah, that is a point. I do credit the Zebedees for the Long Intervals, so I guess they'd also have to kill all of the ovoids in the trail. And I believe the Oort cloud rotates just like everything else, so it's conceivable the Red Star passed through different portions--portions not infected with the disimproved ovoids--during successive passes. Given enough time, the infection may well spread throughout the entire cloud.

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

Ok, well that makes alot more sense than what I'd previously thought. I thought that the long Intervals were caused by being slightly jolted out of orbit from the antimatter engine blasts, and it just settled into a regular orbit on the next trip around, and needed that last explosion to blast it far enough away to never return.

[Mayhem]

AIVAS said that the Red star was to be knocked off orbit, far enough away to never come close enough to Pern to drop the ovoids onto it again. The zebedees were there as a precaution, I suppose that it would be a bit a bit of a letdown to do all that work, only to somehow attract another cometary into the system to drag the ovoids into Pern's orbit!

[Mayhem]

A theory on how the ovoids get to Pern.........at the speed they would be travelling when the left the trail left by the Red star, it is concievable that they would travel colse enough to Pern to be pulled in by the gravity of the planet.
I may be wrong, but that's how I see it.

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

Heres a picture I found showing the Red Star's orbit better than the one I've seen in the DLG, not sure if it helps or not.

The thing I wonder is, if That little area of a Pass there is 50 years, which is the fastest part of the Red star's orbit, wouldn't that make an interval alot longer than 200 years if the Oort cloud is at the very edge of the system?

[ChrisG]

No, there's absolutely no way a planet could crawl through the inner system for fifty orbits of its neighbor. The way I figure it, assuming my model is even slightly accurate, the Red Star spends no more than a few months in that arc. It just has a very, very, very long trail of Thread ovoids following it. Increasing the size of the orbit, and also the orbital period (the two are directly related) would only make it zip through even faster.

I don't really know if gravity explains how the Thread gets pulled out of its orbit. Meteor showers, which is essentially what Threadfall is, occur when the Earth passes through a trail of dust left behind by a comet. The trail of dust can stretch the entire length of the comet's orbit, yet we only see the showers for a matter of days, until the next year when the Earth is in the same position again. I haven't read anything in the Pern books to suggest a Threadfall season; it seems steady throughout the entire Turn. And the bit in the Atlas about the inclined orbit dropping Thread everywhere doesn't really explain it to me, either, that simply alters the direction that Thread would fall from--think a meteor shower over the arctic circle rather than the equator. At least, that's how I see it.

[Ryuu]

Good points, ChrisG. But don't forget, magnetic fields may also affect the pattern of Thread, with the oviods evidently being suseptible to magnetic fields where they live at Near Absolute Zero regions.

Perhaps, if the Red Star's field is opositely alligned with Pern's or one of the other planets in the system (a Jovian world maybe?), the Thread may get disloged from the influence of the Red Star and hang about in system for a longer time than what a simple cometary tail might produce. It might also explain some of the other planets affecting the timing of Falls at the beginning of the Pass (DQ-TWD)

Also, the point of deflecting the Red Star from it old orbit was to prevent it from getting out to the Oort Cloud for "refueling"--and that it was supposed to be put into a "near circular" orbit (maybe like Pluto's orbit in comparison to its previously cometary)

[Larry O-G]

I really don't see the problem of 50 years of thread... We have metor showers as the earth passes through a trail of debris from a comet that past through earth's orbit decades ago. A trail of thread ovoids could easily be caught in Pern's orbit during the pass and tak 50 years to clear out...

:devil: AND remember it is Sci-Fi so anything the author wants happens. :D

[ChrisG]

There is no problem with the Red Star dragging fifty Turns’ worth of Thread behind it; the problem is how the Thread could fall on Pern for the entire Turn. I can easily see how Thread can fall when Pern passes through the trail, but what about the other fifty-one weeks? Magnetic fields have the same limitation as gravity; it’s strongest when Pern is nearest the trail, weaker when it’s farther. I’m more likely to believe that it’s Rukbat’s magnetic field and radiation scattering the ovoids all across the system. Well, okay, fine, it works … though I’d still like to know why Thread falls in four to six hour blocks.

As for the antimatter explosions, I’m guessing they somehow rotated the orbit. According to Aivas: From All the Weyrs of Pern
“Based on the position of the Red Star when Mankind first landed on Pern, that planet is not now in the orbit it should be tracking at this point in time. Repeated calculations were made during the First Fall by captains Keroon and Tillek. Eccentric it might be, but its current position differs from an extrapolation of those original calculations. Its path shows that it has suffered a perturbation of nine-point-three degrees off its original elliptical orbit. That is not consistent with the extrapolated position. Therefore, something has already altered its path. Substantiation occurs in two minor references found in Istan and Keroonian records in the Fourth and Eighth Passes, which were each prior to a long Interval. During each Pass, bright flashes were observed when the Red Star was at apogee in reference to Pern. Bright enough to be remembered and noted.” The phrase ‘at apogee in reference to Pern’ is a bit confusing as the Red Star orbits Rukbat, not Pern. Regardless, apogee and aphelion should be nearly identical to my way of thinking. Now, I’m almost certain that no matter how you alter an object’s orbit, that object will continue to pass through the point where the alteration was made; The Red Star would still pass into the Oort Cloud after the first two explosions. I just can’t see how the orbit was altered. It couldn’t have been made any larger or smaller, or you’d lose the 250 year orbit. The Red Star might have been advanced in its orbit; there are a number of references claiming that the Long Interval only lasted 400 Turns, rather than 450 (2 normal Intervals plus 1 missed Pass), yet figuring out the dates would have the ninth Pass start sometime around 2408AL rather than 2508AL. I’m also not quite sure what to make of the Red Star’s final fate: Jaxom pulled off his gloves and put them down on the console. He didn’t bother to unsuit, since he had no intention of remaining longer than this errand required. He tapped out the appropriate code and saw the cursor outline a second orbit, deviating by several degrees from the earlier one and with the return path intersecting the orbit of the fifth planet and spiraling in! To me, that sounds like the Red Star is going to collide with the fifth planet, yet others seem to think it’ll assume a circular orbit. Not that it much matters, I guess.

Larry, I can accept the explanation that it’s only science-fiction for things like the Yokohama, Buenos Aires, and Bahrain traveling 250 light years distance in only 15 years time; and cold sleep, and genetic manipulation, and antimatter, and AIVAS, and so on. The laws of planetary motion, however, have long been understood.

But, here’s the ‘Because Anne Said So’ answer: The Red Star appears as a brilliant malignant blood-red star that is visible throughout its entire 250 year orbit—even while passing through the Oort Cloud. As it approaches Pern, its gravity creates abnormally high tides and tectonic stresses. It drags behind it 50 Turns’ worth of Thread which can Fall on Pern regardless of where Pern is in its orbit. Seven Turns into the Pass, the Red Star is still near enough to Rukbat that its atmosphere is roiled with hurricane force winds. Twenty-one Turns into the Pass, the Red Star’s atmosphere has all but vanished. Even though the Red Star is approximately the same size as Venus, its gravity is very slight, though still strong enough to create high tides and tectonic stresses on Pern. Think that about covers it. :)

[Ryuu]

Chris, can you say "rosebud"? :evil:

:erm: Anne either established much of the story either before she started making notes or the notes got lost & subsequently recreated with errors & filtered into the books :O ....that she's managed to present the story without too many more GLARING inconsisitancies is short of miraculous :shhh:

But back to what you mentioned, wouldn't the fact the orbit was changed while it was influenced by the fifth planet do more than just shift the orbit's precession?

I've got an old astronomy book detailing the various orbital formulas, and utilizing another planet's gravity to actually adjust and change the orientation and period of an orbit is a valid theory, if a little stretched due to the masses of the planets involved and the amount of anti-matter likely to exist.

Maybe the first two blasts were primarily designed to precess the orbit enough so that the third blast would actually alter the period and ecentricity of the Red Star's orbit by using the 5th planet.

As for the magnetic fields, it was just a thought toward how the Oort cloud debris could scatter about the system to deliver Thread year(Turn;))-round--and so far, the most logical, since gravity couldn't do it & solar winds shouldn't be able to do it. As for the four-hour fall pattern every three days, probably we have to go back to the "Clockwork Rosebud" theory (see the movie, staring Malcolm McDowell:devil: ) unless Anne really does have some notes hidden away that might explain it in a future story...???:confused:

[Monkeysrule]

My theory: Who cares? Thread falls, dragons flame, and Pern is protected... That's all I care!!! :bouncy: :bouncy:

[queenrider melody]

I always thought that it looked like a star that was red, hence, The Red Star. *shrug*
Same here.

[Lady Arwyn]

Suspension of disbelief for the sake of a little enjoyment is a beautiful thing. :ok: