So I bought myself an early Christmas present today....

[Anareth]

http://fltrainerlist.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=goodbye&action=display&thread=1140

(Those pictures may go "poof" soon as they need more space on their board.)

This is Lucky To Cope. He's packing up and moving to Michigan on Tuesday.

[p'ter]

Nice conformation and a comfy size. Good one.

[mawofone]

Beautiful!

[Anareth]

He's a trainer favorite, too (swears up and down he'll do anything you want, and if he could afford to winter him over he'd keep him for his pony-horse string, but given hay prices I can't blame him for not affording another) and the galloper really likes him, too, which is always a good sign. He's going to get a couple months of rest before I start serious training for anything.

[ShadowReine]

You're doing it right...sixty days in a field should detox him from the racing high nicely. He's clearly still in race condition in those shots, and it's a bad idea to try to put a race trained, race conditioned horse straight into riding horse training without time off.

Looking at him...he's going to need to build some muscle on the top of his neck to compensate for the slight ewe neck (Common in racehorses, not so desirable in riding horses). He doesn't have too much of a shark fin wither, which is good (A large shark fin can be expensive...getting a saddle to fit them is hell). Good legs, good depth of heart girth.

You've made a good choice there! And I don't even like pure TBs.

[Anareth]

I had my last OTTB for fifteen years (he died of EPM.) Some of them like to busy all the time, but after 19 starts (per brisnet) this year Lucky to Cope will be a while off.

I like how they look in racing condition (hardest-working equine athletes out there and the fittest!) but I'm never going to be working him that hard! He'll be a field hunter at most. The owner of the barn is nicely going to give him the small paddock that opens right off the barn--much safer than dumping him in a big pasture straight off and letting him do something silly. He's going to be getting probably a lot less grain than he's used to, too, but he doesn't need high-sugar foods. Hay, water, and handwalking for a while.

For English disciplines, I really don't like anything BUT a TB. (Dressage is a joke these days anyway--a gold medal to someone who can't even do a halt at X because she can't really control her horse unless she rollkurs it half to death.) Dumbbloods are easier to make into push-buttons for the hunter circuit, but you can't beat a TB for brains or athleticism. Only other choice for me would be cross to a British or Irish pony breed for smallness or to a draft for a heavy hunter. Though one lady at the barn trail-rides a Percheron and liked her so much she crossed her on a Connemara stallion and the colt is a stunner--shape of a Connemara with serious bone.

[maiken]

Gorgeous!

[ShadowReine]

I assume you are talking about the person who's first name starts with A and ends with y.

I can't STAND that woman! (Okay, to be fair, I've never actually met her, but watching her rides is enough).

I actually try not to be breed prejudiced...I'd buy the Paint I'm working with at the moment in a shot if I could afford him (and if he was for sale)...but he's hardly a typical Paint. I need to ask his owner to let me look at the papers and see how high percentage TB he is...based off of his athleticism and top line I'd be very surprised if he didn't have some recent TB ancestry. He does dressage very well when he can be got to focus...unfortunately, he also has a bit of the bad part of the TB mind...he's not *spooky* per se, but he distracts easily.

It's that that would make me less inclined to purchase a pure Thoroughbred. It may be related to my riding style too, but I find TBs a little attention deficit at times. Of course, there are exceptions.

And hey, there's a reason we HAVE all these different breeds, right?

[Anareth]

Basically the only thing I think is worth paying to breed are TBs, Arabs, and ponies, and anything else I'd be just as happy with a grade. I'm leery of QH unless I know the breeding (if I somehow ended up with a HYPP-positive horse I'd sterilize it, females too, and if it became symptomatic I'd put it down--AQHA really needs to figure out how to get those beef-cattle halter horses with Impressive's toxic genes out of their lines) but you can't beat 'em for cutting and reining, if only they didn't carry two super-deadly genetic disorders. At least HERDA has to be homozygous for symptoms.

Heh, yeah, starts with A, ends in Y, has a "dressage" horse so hot she can barely stay on it...

TBs biggest problems, as a rule (unless you run into the ones kindly described as "too slow to run") is they're a little more observant and pay WAY too much attention to what's going on around them--generally I find they spook and then get over themselves. My old OTTB was actually a ham--he'd CHECK to see if people were watching him. He apparently even had this issue on the track--more interested in checking out the crowd and were they paying attention than running, which might be why his lifetime was 28: 1-4-4 and about $6000. (New horse is 64: 4-4-7 with $94000, though that's five years of racing as opposed to three.)

[Earthmother]

Enjoy your early present!

[ShadowReine]

I wouldn't touch a HYPP positive horse or any horse that was of stock lines and not tested...I would test it at my own expense before buying if need be (It's only $50).

There is NO such thing as an asymptomatic HYPP N/H animal...only one that hasn't had an attack yet.

Besides, I would never buy an Impressive line horse anyway. I don't like the beef steer look and those horses have other problems, like feet too small to stay sound. Honestly, I look at those horses, remember AQHA is pro slaughter and go 'Hmmm'. I don't know that they WANT those genes out of their lines...

And yeah, I think that's my issue with TBs in a nutshell. For my preferences, they're a bit too easily distracted by what's going on around them. I like a bit of TB in a horse for the elasticity of gait, but I like a more 'focused' mind.

Did you hear that she has now taken up reining? Shudder. I hate when I see a picture of a sliding stop where the rider's on the horse's face, and dollars to DONUTS that's how she's riding them.

You'll have to post some pics of you ON this guy when the time comes.

[Anareth]

I heard--on the one hand...yay, Euros getting into one of our disciplines? On the other...yeesh. I mean I'm not saying *I* could ride Salierno, but come on.

There will be pictures! Hopefully sooner than when I'm riding, too. Truck is supposed to come on Wednesday.

[One Pony]

Pretty pony and looks sound from the pictures. If your worried about shark fin, you could use a treeless saddle. It looks a lot like an English saddle but it rides different. They are preferred by riders with difficult fitters. The are lightweight and will with time form a little to the horse. I have a year and half old paint mare. She is very very smart and inquisitive. She is not a spooky horse but has her moments. I'm lucky that if something spooks her she willingly goes back to see if it is still a horde eating bush or dust particle. I am going to start her on fluttering bags and tarps working my way to loud sounds. We are in a very small town and she is stabled 2 miles up the hill away from most noise. I cant rider her for another year and a half but that's what has to be. Most horses are ridden way to early and break down quickly and become lame. Good luck with your baby. I would post a picture of mine if I knew how.

[Bamy]

He's lovely!

[Anareth]

Another nice thing about racehorses--they're very used to noise and heavy equipment! My neighbor used to to desensitize his grade colts by rolling coffee cans at them and flapping them with a feed sack.

I know some people who swear by the treeless saddles, but if he's got the mind to field hunt then he has to wear at least mostly right equipment for jumping. I'm going to try my old Steuben AP on him, which hopefully will fit with a minimum of fussing. I'm not an enormous fan of close-contacts, but if the AP doesn't work I may see if I can find a Crosby PDN on eBay. (I've also got a Wintec Isabel, or rather my brother has THAT, too, but it's a little hard to jump in a super-deep dressage saddle! I barely ever posted in that one, let alone two-pointed. Sadly even if I could FIND a used one, I couldn't afford the discontinued Kiefer Bayern dressage. Best saddle EVER, but they were hugely expensive when they were new--my trainer wouldn't have had one if she hadn't received one as a gift.)

As far as training, I think unless they're a very slow-maturing breed they need to be handled from birth, have a saddle and bridle on as yearlings and a light rider on at two. Even drafters (SUPER slow to mature) are handled from day one (and if a drafter is incorrigible young, the breeders cull them--you can't risk having a horse that big who isn't cooperative. The up side is they're the sweetest most tractable breeds you can ask for. One of the sweetest horses I ever met was a Belgian stallion.)

[Gryphon]

There's a man near me that breeds Belgian mules....... I want one to ride.

[ShadowReine]

I don't think he has enough of a shark fin to cause major saddle fit issues, personally. He's not like my trainer's friends TB who can't fit *anything* off the rack.

Anareth, I disagree absolutely. In England, NO riding horses (racehorses are an exception) are EVER put under a rider until the fall of their three year old year...and none of them end up incorrigible. I agree on handling and accustoming a horse to things, but riding at two IS correlated to early breakdowns. TBs tend to do better, perhaps because of selective breeding for fast maturity, the extreme lightness of jockeys and the lack of tight turns.

No young horse in my care would be expected to carry a rider until three. *However*, by that point, I would expect that young horse to go out on the trails in hand or ponied, clip, shoe, wear saddle and bridle (starting spring of three year old year, with backing in the fall and then full training starting spring of four year old year), load and haul without issues, lunge, long rein up to and including lateral work (*I* don't know how to do this, but that's fine, I can learn). It would also have been shown in hand, so it was used to showgrounds and all of the hustle and bustle...starting as a yearling or maybe even late in the weanling year. It would have MANNERS...you don't HAVE to break a horse to saddle young to instill manners...and the converse is that I know plenty of mature horses that have no manners whatsoever.

I'm also against desensitization. A friend of mine is currently rehabbing a gorgeous 12 year old Paint whom we think was desensitized, Parelli'd, and never disciplined. She's completely bombproof, sure. But she has absolutely no trust in her rider, she doesn't know to accept the rider as alpha and has tried to dump both him and me because she thought it would get us to get off sooner. I'd rather have a horse that looked to me, but had a healthy flight instinct, than one that's desensitized, and I feel that the best bombproofing is to take your baby to as many places and experiences as you can, rather than tarp training.

[Anareth]

Don't get me started on the Parellis. Did you know they think if you use their methods, your horse will be SO safe you don't need to wear a helmet? Seriously. That was Linda's response to an e-mail questioning the wisdom of pictures on her website of her riding without a helmet.

I would be very surprised if Coolmore, for example, isn't backing their horses at two. Given that there is two-year-old racing in the markets that are critical (though Dubai may be in trouble), that would be a poor business decision. Especially with the Euros now going to poly (though given how many career-ending injuries the synthetic's caused in California, that might not be a good thing.) Europe doesn't have fewer breakdowns because of starting older (most horses would have limited value if they did), they have fewer breakdowns because most of their races are on turf with corresponding slower times expected. They're breeding and training for distance, not to pound out 12-second furlongs or faster for sales tests. American horses are being bred for speed over shorter distances and to get that they're pooling Raise A Native lines way too close and getting his junky ankles. They also like that big shiny look, and except for the odd freak like Rachel Alexandra big usually means slower maturing. That's why if I owned Zenyatta I'd be sending her to Cape Cross, Sea The Stars's sire--it'd be a pure cross, no inbreeding in five generations, he's not HUGE, and he can obviously throw stamina.

And I want a horse backed before he's so big and mature he can REALLY put up a fight about it. Backed late one, carrying a rider in light work (for a racehorse) at two, real work at three, no jumping until four and then not unless their brain is right for it--I took the seven-year-old over a five-year-old because if he's lasted this long, he's not only sound, he's not stupid, either. And if they're not absolutely responsive and obedient on the flat, no jumping at all.

I'm not sure about lunging. I really don't want to get back into the habit of needing to lunge before every ride and there are some people who think basically any lunging is evil (bad for the muscles or some such.) I know there will be no side reins, though.

I just hope he's a good loader. The hunter/jumper trainer we got my old horse from effed him up for trailers really bad--most racing TBs load to ship without blinking, but her solution if a horse balked was to lay into him with a whip. After that if you didn't have another horse to load he'd break a chain shank rather than walk up the ramp. (Irony: we met his racing trainers, and he never had a day's problem loading in a gate.)

[ShadowReine]

I don't blame you for picking the seven year old with more starts...that is a good indicator of soundness.

I'm talking about non-racehorses here. Racing is different (Although I personally would like to see two year old racing de-emphasized). English people do not break their RIDING horses and ponies until three. I thought I made that clear, but obviously not....no biggie, we're all clear as mud sometimes. And definitely no jumping before four. What I'm really speaking out against here is two year old futurities for show horses...worst of all, BARREL racers...that's just too much strain to put on a two year old's joints right there... I can understand the fight, but I feel an appropriately handled horse will not fight. If it's fighting, then it hasn't been well prepared for the situation. A horse should not be backed until trust in and respect for humans has been thoroughly instilled. I personally would not get on a two year old, though, plain and simple.

I am somewhere in the middle on lunging. I believe it is a useful skill for a horse to have, but potentially bad for them to spend too much time doing. I dislike side reins, which I feel teach a horse to use the reins to hold themselves up, and anyone who's ever ridden a horse that does that knows it's a bad thing...we had to break the Paint I'm working with of that habit. So annoying.

I'd imagine most racing TBs do, they do get shipped a fair amount in their careers and get used to it.

As for the Parellis. I assume you saw the $3000 Speshul Parelli Saddle That Will Help You Ride Just Like Lisa too?

I am pretty sure Sierra was badly Parelli'd, she has all the signs. Sigh. It is ABUSE to let a horse run right over you, due to how much it reduces the chance of said horse finding a good home.

Of course, so is beating a horse if it balks about going into the trailer for a second. Poor guy. Did you ever get him over it?

[Anareth]

I figure the Parellis will start wearing helmets the day they can find a company that will pay them for an endorsement. Sorry you got a Parelli vicitm...I hear they're a PITA to fix.

I don't at all think two-year-old racing is the cause of breakdowns. It's the breeding. You can run the Euros all day (look at Sea The Stars...) But US breeders want something flashy in the sale ring and that can burn up a sprint distance. Big muscles on speed horses are a lousy combination.

Futurities are only the START of my problems with some of the breed circuits. (Do not get me started on big-lick walkers. Their two-year-olds, now there's idiocy--a full-grown adult man on a horse with its knees racking up to its chin...I do NOT get what people like about that action. The natural gaited horses don't move like the big lick horses, I don't care what their association claims.) Even the Arabs, who are about as close as indestructible as horses get (and also seem to have a genetic penchant for jumping four-foot fences from a standstill) have to do some silly, silly things, and their halter lines are just :eek:. But I also think the warmblood registries are ridiculous--they breed these huge tanks that you can't ride until they're at least four and then they're either dead-stick elephants to ride or they're so insane you have Anky and Salierno and his chin jammed into his chest. You know, I wouldn't even care if the research does show that rollkur doesn't do any real damage, it just LOOKS bad.

And he's HERE! Finally! After a royal screw-up with the first shipper, the second one picked him up in New York this morning and delivered him tonight! First off the trailer, everyone's thought is "No way this horse is 15.3." I would bet he sticks at 16 and change. He also has much more bone than his pictures would indicate, and a lovely refined head. A teeny bit bouncy coming off the trailer, but given it was getting dark, he'd been in the trailer for eleven hours, and there was a dog barking in the yard right next to the drive, that's quite good. Will go out tomorrow to get a better look and get to know him some more.

[Grey Bear]

So, when you've got enough horse-flesh steaks out of it, when are you boiling it down for glue?

*scarpers*

GB!

[Shalyn]

I'm already planning a long weekend to Michigan to meet the pretty horsie!

[Anareth]

So, when you've got enough horse-flesh steaks out of it, when are you boiling it down for glue?

*scarpers*

GB!

Speaking of Eurotrash.... ;) (No cheval steaks here, and frankly all the French and Quebecois who eat our exported horsemeat are pretty stupid...you have any idea what we shoot into them? Nothing that would make it into beef cattle. You want to eat horse, buy it from Japan, they raise some of it for slaughter.)

And Shalyn, you also have a dog to visit. He likes visitors.

Horse had a walk on the lead today, and for being super-fit and less than 48 hours off the track he was pretty accepting of everything. And he definitely has learned from somewhere what carrots and peppermints are.

[ShadowReine]

From his groom, probably ;).

Oh, and Gryphon, Belgian cross mules can be absolutely gorgeous. I have a picture of a fantastic one somewhere around here. Can't find it right this second...will try to locate it for you.