Pope John Paul II

[TamTam]

Well, folks. He's had illnesses. He's had a tracheotomy. He's been put on a feeding tube. He has a fever due to infection.

Looks like it's all over now. He's been given the last rites.

He promised to continue as the Pope until his last breath, and I respect that, even though I'm not a catholic. He's had a long haul. Rest in peace.

[Milo]

I simply pray for a painless "exeunt" for this great man. RIP.

[NeouofPern]

RIP.... Yah, I'll say that.

[Danae]

Oh no! I thought he was doing better from his tracheotomy. :cry: As a Catholic this really affects me. I just got a new bishop, I don't want a new Pope.

[Mitch]

No offense intended to any Catholics ...

but the guy should have stepped down a LONG time ago. I admire that he wanted to stay the distance, but there's a point where, especially to outsiders, you stop looking like an admirable world figure and start looking more than a little silly. He's had health issues for a long time, as I recall. He honestly should have stepped down when his health started going downhill, and let someone younger and stronger physically guide the Church. He could have stayed on in a far less taxing role of some sort.

That said, I do sincerely hope he passes quickly and as painlessly as possible. He's more than done his bit for "King and Country" as it were.

[Caerwyddyn]

Death is the only way out for a Pope - it's not something you CAN resign from...

Or has all my Catholic Schooling been to waste ?

Rip J-P2 :ok:

[Danae]

The Pope doesn't need to be physically fit, just mentally fit. Even if he was sick, Pope John Paul II did a lot of very good stuff even in his last few years.

[TamTam]

Death is the only way out for a Pope - it's not something you CAN resign from...

Or has all my Catholic Schooling been to waste ?

Rip J-P2 :ok:

I was not aware of that, Caer. Thanks for the enlightenment.

And that's all the Catholic schooling I'll ever get.

[S'amm]

I am not catholic, nor even religious but aren't you folks jumping the gun a little. He isn't gone yet, for goodness sake.

S'amm

[Caerwyddyn]

I am not catholic, nor even religious but aren't you folks jumping the gun a little. He isn't gone yet, for goodness sake.

S'amm''Last Rites'' signifies that he's about to, S'amm :cry:

[Kugai]

He's been ill for some time and has been getting worse for months now. Like most, I think it will not be long before he passes beyond the veil.

Despite the fact that I do not agree with some of his policies, I admire him for the fact that he has never backed down from his beliefs, and has shown great compassion at times - Would YOU be able to forgive the man who tried to assassinate you like he did?

I hope he goes peacefully and with little pain when the time comes.

[Crysania]

I read in the paper today that they had to start giving him nutrition through a tube because it hurt his throat too much to eat but I wasn't aware that he had recieved the last rites. :sad:

[granath]

He's not dead yet, and people have survived to live after last rites. However, I hope that he passes peacefully.

[Purpura]

I hope the same for the Pope... that he passes peacefully, in his sleep even though I am not Catholic, I admired him.

[Ian]

I think history will regard him as one of the greatest Popes, partly because of his length of time in the post, but chiefly because he wasn't content to stay in the Vatican, there can't be many parts of the world that he hasn't visited. Considering the assassination attempt, Parkinson's disease, & his recent problems, his personal strength is amazing. A lot of people would probably have given up the fight by now, but Poles are stubborn people (just ask Hitler). Whoever follows him is going to find stepping into those shoes very difficult, I think John Paul II's shadow is going to linger over the Vatican for a long time.

[Kat]

''Last Rites'' signifies that he's about to, S'amm :cry:



John Paul had "Last Rites"after his assasination attempt too.

It was given simply as a precaution...

[Dai]

Death is the only way out for a Pope - it's not something you CAN resign from...

Or has all my Catholic Schooling been to waste ?

Rip J-P2 :ok:


I read something recently (like about 6 weeks ago) that there have been 4 previous popes to have stepped down - so there is at least some precendent there.

Love Dai

Ok - did some googling and found an article on the subject (not the one i read though )http://www.theage.com.au/text/articles/2005/02/25/1109180108595.html and quote No more than 10 popes are believed to have stepped down, though the historical evidence is not clear, Father Reese said. The most famous is Pope Celestine V, who assumed the papacy in 1294 aged 85 and resigned five months later, saying he was not up to the task. He was later put under guard for fear he would become the rallying point for a schism.... Will keep hunting on the subject

[leahiniowa]

Wow! I was 19 when he became Pope! I remember all the Pope John Paul George and Ringo jokes! And that was before John Lennon had been killed, too.

Even though I'm not Catholic, I hear that he used to give food to concentration camp inmates as a boy. He could have been killed for that. And I also hear he apologized for things like the holocaust, etc.

So I respect him.

I find it fascinating that he is going through almost exactly what Terri S. went through, except w/o all the arguing. Also, I hear he's conscious.

Does one have to be conscious for last rites?

[Dai]

Wow! I was 19 when he became Pope!

Just to make you feel fabulous (well i wont say old) - for me there has only been one pope ;) (only just though)

[Anareth]

The last Pope to resign resigned under political durress and did so more than four hundred years ago. None have ever resigned because of age, and there's no procedure for it. (And some don't count, because there was a period of 'anti-popes', when there were two Popes at once.)

And no, he's not going through what Terri Shiavo went through. With the Holy Father, they put the feeding tube IN when he started to go downhill. Plus, he's actually sick. He's not going to be starved to death.

And for those who don't understand the Sacrament for the Sick and Dying, it's administered when things look bad, but as granath said, it doesn't mean you're immediately dying. It's sort of...making sure, just in case the patient goes down really fast.

Leah: theortetically, no. A priest can grant absolution si capax ('if possible') to unconscious or...well, let me put it this way, a priest gave John F. Kennedy extreme unction si capax, even though he'd been dead for at least a half-hour. The priest in that case says, "If possible, I absolve you, in the name of the Father..." Meaning it might not precisesly "take", especially if the person died without being able to confess a mortal sin, but it can't hurt, might help. (When granting the Last Rites, usually the dying person should privately confess to the priest and be absolved of their sins before the annointing.)

[leahiniowa]

Actually what I meant about Schiavo is just that they're getting last rites and feeding tubes and stuff (well, I meant that he got one put in when hers was taken out) all at the same time. And it seems to me that a lot of times this sort of thing seems to happen. Like when that Kennedy boy broke his neck skiing,then a week later Sonny Bono does the same thing. And Mother Teresa and Princess Diana dying the same week. It just seems that this stuff seems to happen in clusters.

[TamTam]

I've been trying to figure out why I find myself drawn to this topic. After all, I'm not catholic, never have been, and know very few people who are. I disagree with a lot of the things that the catholic church teaches.

But I think I've hit on it. Not to be morbid, but this is really how I would like to die.

Well, not precisely. I would like to retire a few years before they plant me. ;) But, honestly. It's peaceful, surrounded by loved ones, after having lived a long and dedicated life. It's actually quite nice.

I certainly am relieved to see this after being inundated with starvation, tsunamis, and car-bombings.

[AnnMarie]

I walked away from the Catholic Church for many reasons.

John Paul was not one of them.


Here is a man who reaches out to EVERYONE. He would LIKE everyone to be of his beliefs, but he understands better than most it will probably never happen. He believes (it seems to me) that HOW a person lives is more important than what they profess to believe. He has always LIVED his beliefs.

I knew when they inserted the feeding tube, people would start comparing him to Terri Schaivo. Apples and Oranges. This is a man still in command of his throught proccesses. He can still function, even if he needs help. The tube was/is a temporary measure do to throat problems.

May his end, when it comes, be peaceful and painless. May he find what he is looking for beyod the Veil. And may his soul continue to watch over the people of the world, because I think he is one of the few who truely loves us ALL.

[Anareth]

Actually what I meant about Schiavo is just that they're getting last rites and feeding tubes and stuff (well, I meant that he got one put in when hers was taken out) all at the same time. And it seems to me that a lot of times this sort of thing seems to happen. Like when that Kennedy boy broke his neck skiing,then a week later Sonny Bono does the same thing. And Mother Teresa and Princess Diana dying the same week. It just seems that this stuff seems to happen in clusters.

We could add one more 'famous' person to the cluster, too. Prince Ranier of Monaco has been the hospital for days, and his duties have been signed over to his son.

I remember being annoyed about the whole Diana/Mother Teresa thing. The real saint got overlooked in the hoopla.

[jjmouse]

May Pope John Paul not suffer any longer than he needs to. He is a good man and will be remembered as such for many years.


Pope John Paul told people what he wanted as far as his cares and what happens to him. It is clear that HIS wishes are being carried out. If Terri Schivo had put HER wishes in writing, if she had made clear what she wanted, she would have died a long time ago, or she would still be alive now, and no one save her family would no who she was.

[carmella]

He has Parkinson's. When it hit my friend's father's throat muscles it meant no coming back. The chest wall would already be compromised meaning he would be struggling for every breath. I hope he passes quietly without pain. He has worked hard and deserves a rest from all his physical struggles.

No I'm not Catholic.

[Dux]

Is anyone else constantly checking a news website to see what's going on?

[Dux]

May Pope John Paul not suffer any longer than he needs to. He is a good man and will be remembered as such for many years.


Pope John Paul told people what he wanted as far as his cares and what happens to him. It is clear that HIS wishes are being carried out. If Terri Schivo had put HER wishes in writing, if she had made clear what she wanted, she would have died a long time ago, or she would still be alive now, and no one save her family would no who she was.
I can't help thinking about that too. especially as they announced yesterday that he was bing fed through a tube now.

[Milo]

Is anyone else constantly checking a news website to see what's going on?
Nope, but NPR is on constantly.

[Milo]

The Vatican has announced that he John Paul II has now passed on.

:cry:

[Selene]

He was true to his faith to the end. A Great man has gone to his God . Rest in Peace.

[Crysania]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3305285/

[§Honeymouse§]

im not catholic but he was a great man and deserves respect :cry:

[Milo]

NPR (national public radio) has a very good special coverage program right now. Its not your TV sensational.

[Purpura]

www.cnn.com Also has an article....

[Calaedros]

RIP John Paul II.

Cal

[Brenda]

I hope the next one does as well. :sad:

[zankoku]

I am a Catholic and have been all my life. I have lived through 4 Popes. John XXIII and John Paul were the greatest. This was was the best.

I had te honor of seeing him twice (within 10 feet and no one in front of me. Once was when he came to Phoenix and then 4 1/2 years ago when I was in Rome.

He was the Pope of the world. It didn't matter who you were, even an assassin, he loved everyone Catholic and non-Catholic alike. He was brave (joining an underground seminary during WWII) and forgiving (forgiving his assassin.) How many of us could say the same.

Amme-Marie, I don't know what teh issues were, but come back.

Only God's hand will provide the next Pope and the Pope will serve at HIS will. I just wonder if the Italians will regain the Papacy or will another Non-Italian become Pope. I wonder if there are any Cardinals who are of Jewish or Arab ancestory. Hey maybe an Irish Pope.

May Pope John Paul rest in Peace.

Jim

[Wolfegar]

According to what I heard on the news Pope John Paul II was the first pope to really travel to distant places. He was the first to fly. He was also the first pope to use The Internet.

The so called Last Rites, really a prepatory prayer, the Sacrament for the Sick and Dying as posted by Anareth, was received by Pope John Paul II on something like four seperate occasions.

[king_cobra2006]

RIP John Paul II. you will be sadly and sorely missed by all the world over. :sad:

I am a Christian.

[Gryphon]

I will always respect him for the man of peace he was. May he Rest In Peace.

[Anareth]

Please, no more Italians. Seven hundred years is enough. I'd hope for another Slav, but it's unlikely. Interesting point: this is the first time that there realistically could be a Pope from Asia, or Africa, or the New World. (Odds are very long on the American cardinals, but you never know.)

Tidbit: There's no canon law saying the man the Cardinals elect as Pope has to be one of them. For the past few centuries it has been, but it's not written in stone.

Anyone ever see the film "The Shoes of the Fisherman", with Anthony Quinn? It was made in the sixties, and it featured a Russian (Slavic) priest being released from a Soviet work camp through the Vatican's negotiations and brought to Rome, where he was made a Cardinal. (If you want a fairly good approximation of what's going to happen, the movie shows the election of a Pope with a narration on what's going on.) And then when the Pope dies, he's made Pope by acclaimation after the Cardinals deadlock on their other candidates. He then goes on to work for world peace by negotiating with China and reaching out to the East Bloc. This was well before anyone ever would have concieved of a Pope from the Communist-dominated East. The eeriest part of the movie? The Russian Pope's name is Kyril. (For those who don't know, John Paul II was Karol, Cardinal Wotyla.) In retrospect it's a scarily prescient film. Wish I had it with me now.

I've prayed, and I felt like crying a little, but on the other hand he's gone before us again. (His first words as Pope were "Be not afraid.") Conversation in heaven I'd most like to hear: when he meets his predecessor, John Paul I, who was Pope only 33 days, and is rumored to have said when elected that he was the wrong man and there was someone else among them who was the right man to be Pope.

[Kugai]

:sad: :cry: :sad:

Till we meet again in the place where no Shadows fall

[Crysania]

Given a few more years I would have bet that Archbishop Gregory would be Pope. But I'm not sure we have progressed that far.

[Pat]

The world is a sadder place with the loss of Pope John Paul II. I wish all world leaders had his love of mankind,bravery, compassion and charity. But he is now free of pain/suffering and very happy, I'm sure.

Since he has been Pope for almost half of my life....it is going to seem so strange not to have him in the Chair of Peter. I think Pius XII was Pope when I was born...but not sure...

Yes...I'm a bred/born and raised Catholic, plus 12 years of Catholic School.

Just some things I remembered or heard about electing a Pope or about John Paul (forgot a lot, since its been so long)

The Pope does not have to even be a priest. Any Catholic male, as long as he is not married, may be elected.

The general feeling is that a American Pope will not be elected, so as not to have a superpower country represented. (found that an interesting statement).

Also had not realized that of the 117 cardinals eligible to vote to fill the Papacy, 114 were appointed by Pope John Paul II.

Except for the first head of the Catholic Church, no Pope has chosen the name of Peter.

[Lisa Lewis]

Pope John Paul II has been a very strong symbol of the catholic church. In my opinion, he's shown everyone how we should treat each other, catholic, non-catholic, male, female, young or old. I hope that the leaders of the world will take a moment and realize what a great man he was and try to learn from his example. I also hope that every human also tries to emulate him....

I"m sure he has heard the words I hope and pray to hear one day... "Welcome Home, My Good and Failthful Servant."

[Madrigal]

I'm no longer a Catholic (was raised one), but John Paul II is possibly the world leader that I have the most admiration for. His loss is saddening, to say the least.

Requiescat in pace. And :group: for all of the Catholics out there.

[BeckyMildan]

The Catholic Church and the World has lost a great leader. There have been many religious leaders whose faith was total. Pope John Paul II was one of them. What places him among the few is that he not only lived his faith but acknowledged and respected that people of other faiths believed as strongly in their faith as he did in his. May he rest in peace.

[Zei]

I'm very very very young, so I don't know much about all this...but still...

Rest in peace, JP II :)

[Milo]

I've been thinking alot about this... obviously.

I'm not really understanding the mourning. I mean, Its sad, I'm sad about it, but He's with God, he's not suffering. I've also felt sort of funny about praying for him. It just pops into my head "Camilo! What are you doing? What right do you have to pray for him? He's closer to God than anybody else you can think of, your semi-lazy in your religion!" And now that he's died, I really dont know what to pray for. I mean, I believe he's getting his reward. Do I pray for his soul?

Thorougly confused. :erm:

[Crysania]

Well, I'm not sure if the Pope spends time in Purgatory like Catholics believe but if he does then you could pray for his soul in Purgatory. We believe that after you die then it's up to the rest of us to pray you out.

This explaination could be a bit skewed as it's 1:15am here and I'm extremely tired.

[Miss K]

I was baptised Catholic although i'm now Agnostic. I still am very saddened by the Pope's death. I am glad though that he is no longer suffering.

I've heard a few people talking about a sainthood for JP2. Can they do that? I thought there were certain things that a person had to do to become a saint. Perform so many miracles, be martyred in some gruesome and inventive way, etc. What are the standards for sainthood? :confused:

Carmal has taught me a lot about the religion (especially over the weekend as we sat by our computers waiting for any news) as she was born and bred Catholic as well. From what she has told me you have to be dead 100 years to become a saint.

I'll ask Carmal to check out this thread though and she may be able to answer a few more questions.

RIP JPII :heartbeat

[Carmal]

I was baptised Catholic although i'm now Agnostic. I still am very saddened by the Pope's death. I am glad though that he is no longer suffering.



Carmal has taught me a lot about the religion (especially over the weekend as we sat by our computers waiting for any news) as she was born and bred Catholic as well. From what she has told me you have to be dead 100 years to become a saint.

I'll ask Carmal to check out this thread though and she may be able to answer a few more questions.

RIP JPII :heartbeat
Wow! I didn't think that Kylie was listening because we don't normally talk about religion.

Regarding sainthood, my knowledge is only because of my love of Mary McKillop, who lived and taught in my home town, and was beatified by the Pope and is set to become Australia's first saint.

A person has to be dead for quite a while - most people say about 100 years. If their life was exemplary enough and there have been 'proven' miracles ascribed to them an application can be made to the Vatican for consideration for sainthood. This isn't easy as there is a LOT of research and evidence gathering to be done before the application can be made.

If the evidence all 'checks out' then the Pope can designate a person as 'beatified' which is the first step to sainthood. Once that has been done, further miracles have to be proven before the Pope finally confers sainthood on them. This whole process can take decades.

JP2 was a person who I didn't agree with on a lot of his conservative teachings, but he was someone who was fully committed to his God and his beliefs, which is something that I have a lot of respect for. I'll miss him.

RIP JP2 :applause:

[Crysania]

Wasn't Mother Theresa speed through to sainthood or is she still only in the beatification (is that the word?) stage?

[Magda]

It's hard to express my feelings.
I feel sad, but believing in Heaven helps.

I'm too young to remember any previous Pope and I've learned about him since my childhood because of my religion and nationality.

I've never seen something like what's happening now in Poland, so many people in churches, so many people wearing black, all media reminding his visits and famous words, so many flags with black piece

Even though Poland is Catholic dominated country and John Paul II was one of the most important people of our nationality and not many are known abroad.


I'm a bit afraid about the future. I mean the reaction of people for the next Pope. I think his nationality may have been an additional reason for his popularity here. And it may be hard to se there another person, who won't talk to them in their language or won't recall his memories during the visits.

I feel respect and admiration for him.

[Lady Arwyn]

Pres Bush just ordered all Federal flags to half-staff for mourning.

OK, I have no problem with Catholics mourning his loss, and other relgious folks, but am I the only person here who has a problem with the *government* going into mourning over a religous leader?

What happened to the seperation of church and state? No President in history has ever done this for any previous Pope's death. WHy now?

:banghead:

[Priscilla]

I've seen a LOT of privately owned flags at half staff today and kind of wondered about it. I'm not surprised or terribly upset about federal flags. In some ways the Pope was a "political" leader as well as a religious one - wasn't he the head of Vatican City, which I believe is it's own little "country" inside Rome? Anyway, I consider it a sign of respect. I'd welcome the same thing being done for the Dalai Lama when his time comes, or any other religious leader who's had a major positive impact on the world. I don't believe it's undermining our country to show that we recognize the contributions of other leaders, be they political, religious or both! Just my opinion.

[Ravien Coromana]

Wanna know what I say bout hte pope? He's dead!
(non-cathloic)

Edited to consider those whom feel strongly about the Pope's Passing.

[Milo]

I dont have a problem with the flags. As long as we would do the same for any other major "leader" who is considered a great loss.

[zankoku]

K, I have no problem with Catholics mourning his loss, and other relgious folks, but am I the only person here who has a problem with the *government* going into mourning over a religous leader?

Besides the Pope being the leader of the Catholic Church, he is a Government leader. The Vatican is its own City State and is an independent country. It can and does issue its own currancy, newspaper and stamps that are recognized world wide. In fact I have a 1000 lira from the Vatican on my wall.

Ravien, I feel your comment to be rude and unfeeling.

Jim

[Milo]

I dont think the lowering of the flags is bad. Its more of a sign of RESPECT than MOURNING in this case, I would say.

[Dux]

Here's another question. Could a man who has been married and had children, someday become Pope? Still waiting for an answer to my other question. . . ;)
It has happened in the distant past. Many priests in the Middle Ages were first ordinary men with familes who later dedicated their lives to the Church, became priests and so on. I think there were even a few Popes who had wives while in office - but that was probably early on. There have also been those one or two Popes who have had children after becoming Priests if not Pope :Wink: (without the benefit of marriage). There was one in the late 1400's/early 1500's who had a whole load of kids - can't remember his name off the top of my head though.

[NeouofPern]

Pres Bush just ordered all Federal flags to half-staff for mourning.

OK, I have no problem with Catholics mourning his loss, and other relgious folks, but am I the only person here who has a problem with the *government* going into mourning over a religous leader?

What happened to the seperation of church and state? No President in history has ever done this for any previous Pope's death. WHy now?

:banghead:
Oh no worries. Seperation of Church and State is apparently obsolete. Yes, it bothered me tons too.

[j_mercuryuk]

i don't know if this has been said already, but in answer to the married priest thing:
if your a priest of another domination and you convert and your already married then you can be a married priest.

it's sad that the pope is dead 'cause i believe he was a great man. but then it's ended his suffering. i choose to celebrate his life, not mourn his death. (if that makes sense)

[leahiniowa]

Christmas is a federal holiday and you're worried about the flags being half mast? To me, flag masting one way or the other is just a sign of respect, like saying "Mr. or Ms. President." But institutionalizing a holiday (as much as I don't mind, b/c Doc gets double pay to work on it) is much less a separation of church and state.

[NeouofPern]

At my school, we do get the major Jewish holidays off. As Channukah often coincides with x-mas, it's easier for schools to make one big "winter break".

[Milo]

it's sad that the pope is dead 'cause i believe he was a great man. but then it's ended his suffering. i choose to celebrate his life, not mourn his death. (if that makes sense)
Makes perfect sense.

If anyone was wondering, the official time before beatification can begin is five years. I think they cut this down for Mother Theresa

[leahiniowa]

The Simon Wiesenthal sent me this:

With the passing of Pope John Paul II, we have lost the strongest advocate for reconciliation for the Jewish people in the history of the Vatican. This Pope was determined to embark on a new course and leave that shameful period behind. From the very beginning of his papacy, when he first visited his native Poland, there were hints that this Pope was going to break with tradition and not follow the centuries-old script with respect to the Jews.


On his 1979 visit to Auschwitz, when he approached the inscriptions bearing the names of the countries whose citizens had been murdered there, he said, "I kneel before all the inscriptions bearing the memory of the victims in their languages. In particular, I pause before the inscription in Hebrew. This inscription awakens the memory of the people whose sons and daughters were intended for total extermination. It is not permissible for anyone to pass by this inscription with indifference."

[zankoku]

Hope this works. I took this picture in Sptember 200 when I was in Rome and I will always remember it.

Jim

[Kugai]

Good Photo Zankoku. From a period that ended after the Assassination Attempt - The Pope in an open Car.

[zankoku]

This is true, but even then we went through heavy security scrren and metal detectors. One guy had a 2- inch pocket knife that they made him leave behind. All bags searched. NO EXCEPTIONS. Security done by Italian Police.

The guys around the Pope in suits make our Secret Service look like Boy Scouts. And the Papal guards in those old looking uniforms are armed with swords and I would bet an UZI that you can't see. Night time uniform is dark grey sweaters and pants, along with a side arm. They are not push overs. Each guard takes his job seriously and it is an honor to serve. Very strict requirements.

[Dux]

At my school, we do get the major Jewish holidays off. As Channukah often coincides with x-mas, it's easier for schools to make one big "winter break".
Because I grew up in NYC I never knew that everyone didn't have the major Jewish holidays off - we always did. It wasn't until I was in college, doing my student teaching that I realized that every school district makes up their own calender and most do not take the Jewish holidays off.

[Kugai]

Well, the Swiss Guard have been the Papal Guard for centuries, and their entry requirements are quite strict.

Five will get you ten those antiquated looking weapons they carry are nice, sharp and they know how to use 'em!

[zankoku]

After I saw the Swiss Guards keeping someone from slipping through them in two different places, I gave up the idea of trying to add one of their swords to my collection. The guy with the pike deffinitely looked like he knew how to use it.

I understand that they are trained as soldiers. In fact if you have ever read the story of how they became the only guards allowed you would find that when the Vatican was under attack except for a squad that got the Pope to safety, the rest died on the steps of the Vatican to the man.

That is why they are the Swiss guards.

Jim

[Milo]

After I saw the Swiss Guards keeping someone from slipping through them in two different places, I gave up the idea of trying to add one of their swords to my collection. The guy with the pike deffinitely looked like he knew how to use it.

I understand that they are trained as soldiers. In fact if you have ever read the story of how they became the only guards allowed you would find that when the Vatican was under attack except for a squad that got the Pope to safety, the rest died on the steps of the Vatican to the man.

That is why they are the Swiss guards.

Jim
why "swiss"?

[zankoku]

Because the soldiers who died protecting the Pope, just happened to all be Swiss. So They were honored by the Papacy who commissioned them as the official Papal guard.

I found this on 2 different sites.

In a barracks within the Vatican walls, new recruits to the smallest standing army in the world are mustering out.

They are Swiss Guards, and for the last 500 years, they have been the bodyguards of the pope.
They number only about 100, and to qualify, one must be Swiss, Catholic, and at least five feet eight inches (173 centimeters) tall.
Today they drill with state-of-art equipment—circa 1500—preparing for the biggest day on their calendar, the ceremony where they will pledge their fidelity and their lives to the pope.
The Swiss Guards do serve a ceremonial role, but they are also a carefully trained security force. When the pope moves in public, the guards shed their stripes for plain clothes and join members of the Vatican police to form a cordon around the pontiff.


And from the second site.

The Swiss Guards give a touch of color to St. Peter's Square: in their Renaissance costumes, with puffed sleeves and knicker-bockers striped red, blue and yellow, they stand on either side of the basilica, guarding the gates into Vatican City.
When the company was founded, in 1505, the soldiers wore simple tunics, but in 1548 the present uniforms were adopted. A long-standing tradition holds that they were designed by Michelangelo, but there is no foundation for this belief. As well as their everyday costumes, the Swiss Guards have suits of armor, with swords weighing thirty kilos, but these are used only for escorting the Pope during special ceremonies in St. Peter's.
At the beginning of the 16th century the Vatican began to employ Swiss mercenaries, who had a reputation for faithful and disinterested service. During the Sack of Rome in 1527, when Charles V of Spain devastated the city with his army of "lanzichelecchi", it was only the quick reaction of the Swiss Guards which enabled Pope Clement VII to take refuge in Castel Sant'Angelo; 147 Swiss soldiers died in the fighting. The invaders occupied the Vatican buildings, causing untold damage: they used ancient manuscripts as bedding for their horses, lit fires on the marble floors and scratched graffiti on the frescoes.
The Cohors Helvetica currently numbers 107: the commander, five officers (including a chaplain) and 101 soldiers, all of Swiss birth. Until about 30 years ago, only citizens of the German-speaking cantons were eligible for admission to the company, but in recent years there has been a dearth of candidates and now French- and Italian-speaking nationals can also enrol. They must be Roman Catholics, unmarried, between 18 and 25 years of age, and they must also be good-looking. Officially they are supposed to be over 1.74 meters tall, but nowadays this regulation is not enforced too strictly. Their pay is not very high - the equivalent of just over 1,000 U.S. dollars per month, paid in Swiss francs - but they are given full board and lodging.
Every year on May 6, anniversary of the Sack of Rome, the Swiss Guards renew their vows of allegiance in the Courtyard of San Damaso inside the Vatican. In a colorful ceremony, new recruits kneel down, raise three fingers of their right hand to symbolize the Trinity and swear to serve the Pope "to the death".



Jim

[Sassie]

Am I right in thinking that the Swiss Guard is not only the world's 'smallest' army but also the only 'Private' army in the world?

Or am I totally confused again!

[zankoku]

I would think a "Private Army" would be for an individual in a country. Since the Vatican is considered a country, it's army is not really "private"

At one time the Papal state was much larger than its current facility. The town of Orvietto for example was once the summer home to the Pope. It is a huge walled city with a very interesting church and the best dang tasting wild boar.

The wine is great also.

Jim

[Anareth]

They're not precisely a private army, as they are attached to the Vatican and whomever happens to be Pope, not to one particular Pope. And tiny or not, the Vatican is a country.

And, uh...that's definitely not taken "pre-assassination attempt." The assassination attempt was in 1981. The same year, in fact, that Ronald Reagan was almost killed by John Hinkley. (Only in the Pope's case there is some evidence that al Acga wasn't just a random nutter, and I don't mean just Tom Clancy theorizing in "Red Rabbit." He didn't make that plot up completely.) Unless the typo is right and that WAS taken in AD 200, not 2000. ;)

What I said about not doing 'sainthood by acclaimation' any more...well, it wasn't for lack of trying. Cardinal Ratzinger was starting to look very PO'd during the funeral Mass, because he kept having to wait while the crowd shouted "Santo! Santo" and (translation) "Saint John Paul". If this were the old days (by which I mean, say, Middle Ages and earlier) I doubt the crowd would have let the cardinals leave without doing an insta-canonization.

[Kugai]

If you mean by 'Private' the fact that it is the Popes own Guard, yes. But what you have to remember is the Vatican is it's own state, so essenially, the Swiss Guard is actually the Vatican States Military.

[leahiniowa]

"In fact if you have ever read the story of how they became the only guards allowed you would find that when the Vatican was under attack except for a squad that got the Pope to safety, the rest died on the steps of the Vatican to the man."

Actually, I knew about that b/c when I was a teen we went to Lucerne Switzerland, and there is a beautiful memorial to those men carved into a mountain, a lion dying with a spear in its side. I'm going to go look for it on the net right now and see if I can find it. I'd forgotten about that. I'm glad now I remember it.

[leahiniowa]

http://www.alanator.com/photos/europe2003/images/Switzerland/DSC02154.JPG

Well, that's a link. For some reason I can never get photos copied off the net to here.

[Milo]

http://www.alanator.com/photos/europe2003/images/Switzerland/DSC02154.JPG

Well, that's a link. For some reason I can never get photos copied off the net to here.
Truly Beautiful.

[Paulita]

I believe so. In fact, as far as I know, the only way a priest can be married is if he becomes a priest after marrying his wife. The Church can't make him divorce :)

(disclaimer: I'm not a Catholic, so I'll wait for someone who knows such things to verify this ;) )

CalYes a priest can be married (I'm a Catholic) I've known several married or widowed priest's. It is rare for one to still be married usually they are widowed or thier marriage has been annulled by the pope. The catholic church is to a certain extent very resricting on the rules of divorce but it doesn't totally forbid it (it just makes it bloody difficult to continue to be a fully practicing Catholic unless the marriage is annulled).

[Paulita]

I've seen a LOT of privately owned flags at half staff today and kind of wondered about it. I'm not surprised or terribly upset about federal flags. In some ways the Pope was a "political" leader as well as a religious one - wasn't he the head of Vatican City, which I believe is it's own little "country" inside Rome? Anyway, I consider it a sign of respect. I'd welcome the same thing being done for the Dalai Lama when his time comes, or any other religious leader who's had a major positive impact on the world. I don't believe it's undermining our country to show that we recognize the contributions of other leaders, be they political, religious or both! Just my opinion.
The pope is/was a head of state the Vatican city is a 'state' within a 'state' and as such was a political leader, as well as being a religious leader for the massed ranks of Catholics, as to was it right for flags to be lowered to half mast I could not possibly comment however, I feel that because JP did so much for the people of the whole world Catholic and other religions alike it was a mark of respect from all nations.

[leahiniowa]

There is a Menachem Mendel Schneerson National Day of Education in memory of my Rebbe. He also got the Congressional Medal of Honor. And I am almost 100% positive is has nothing to do with the fact that he worked on a top secret engineering project for the Navy called "Project Yehudi." (The knowledge of the existence of the project isn't secret, but the details of the project are.)

[leahiniowa]

I think it's Zankoku who is something like a priest and married, and he once explained how if you are an episcopal priest and become catholic you can do this sort of thing.

[zankoku]

Leah,

I am no priest, however I did study for the priesthood for a year and went to a Jesuit High School and Seminary where I took Theology among other things.

I am a lay minister of the Eucharist which means that I can distribute Communion to the congregation. This is an appointment and not an ordination.

I don't feel that being a Deacon or a Priest is in my calling. And yes I have been married for 32 years.

By knowing ones religion and history, I do have some knowledge that others might not have. History has always fascinated me so I tend to remember it, just not the dtes of when things happened. Because of my writing, I also do a lot of research.

The knowledge I have about married priests is due to my Pastor being a married Priest who was a Lutheran Priest when he and his family converted.

Jim

[leahiniowa]

Aha, I knew I wasn't completely clear about it!

[Anareth]

Yes a priest can be married (I'm a Catholic) I've known several married or widowed priest's. It is rare for one to still be married usually they are widowed or thier marriage has been annulled by the pope. The catholic church is to a certain extent very resricting on the rules of divorce but it doesn't totally forbid it (it just makes it bloody difficult to continue to be a fully practicing Catholic unless the marriage is annulled).

Canon law point--yes, the Catholic church forbids divorce. Period. Catholics can GET a secular divorce, but it isn't recognized by the church and as such they'd be considered to be committing adultery if they remarried. What can happen is an annulment--this is NOT a "Catholic divorce." Divorce says that a marriage existed but has ended. Annulment says the marriage never existed in the first place. (Which is why it's really hard to do when you have children, unless your name is Kerry or Kennedy, you're obscenely wealthy, and you lived in the Archdiocese of Boston when Cardinal Law was running the place.) You CAN do it, but it takes proof that for some reason, the celebration of the Sacrament of Marriage was invalid. In the case of a dear friend of mine, who is NOT rich enough to have bought off her local archbishop, her marriage was annulled because her now-ex husband admitted he lied about believing in God, being willing to bring up the children Catholic (she does have kids, no, they are not now considered bastards because she THOUGHT she was married at the time--it's a little bit of canon-law rules-lawyering, but it's only fair) and lied about willingness to be faithful when he took the marriage vows. Since he lied knowingly at the time of the wedding, the marriage was invalid in the eyes of the Church.

Marriage is VERY serious in the Church--unlike in every Protestant denomination I know of, for Catholics it's considered a full Sacarment, equal to Baptism, Ordination, Communion, etc. (There are seven sacraments, and I should remember them better as I probably earned about 1000 years in Purgatory with the rest of my prayer group at that dioscesan retreat where for our skit about the sacraments we did "The Quick and Dirty Seven Sacraments"--hey, it was obvious! And Father John laughed! It was nervous laughter, but it was a laugh!) It's viewed as a representation of the love of God for his Church, and as such it's not supposed to be something entered into lightly or abandoned lightly. John Paul II even took it so far as to say that sex within marriage (whether primarily intended for procreation or not) was holy. There's a reason besides some kind of puritanical perversity for ending marriage being so difficult in Catholicism.

[zankoku]

What can happen is an annulment

Anareth

In our diocese there is a thorough investigation and it is not headed by the Bishop. It is much different than what my folks went through back in the early 60's.

My Dad was not a Catholic and had been divorced. He and my mother married in a civil ceremony. My Dad raised my brother and I as Catholics and wanted to convert. It took a lot for that to happen and then in order for both of my folks to be able to receive the sacraments, they had to experience a very painful trial period. (They had to live as brother and sister. Both my brother and I were away at school.

YEARS later, they received the authroization for them to be married in teh Church. Some of the information I got from my brother a couple of years ago. My dad passed away 3 years ago and my mom about 10 years before. They had been married for 55 years and they went through a lot but remained faithful to the Church.

Things have changed and people do not have to go through what they did.

Jim

[leahiniowa]

Are you saying your parents had to live as brother and sister for YEARS????

[zankoku]

Leah

Yes about 4 or 5 as I remember.

Jim

[Milo]

My mum is also a lay minister (is that the right name?) she dishes out the eucharist at mass. I'd never heard of married priests but married DEACONS are very very common.

[zankoku]

C'millo

Your mother is an EM (Eucharistic Minister) as I am.

I knew of married priests back in the early 60's (benefit of a Jesuit education) but at the time it was limited to the Eastern Rites, not the Roman Rite. It has only been in the last 20 years that the Roman Rite has had married priests.(All converts) and there are only about 100 in the US.

It is funny to hear comments from visitors when they find out the pastor is married. In our parish it is even funnier since the Byzantine church occupies our former facility and our pastor once was the Associate Pastor and our Deacons serve there also. ! Catholic Church and a Byzantine church in a predominantly Mormon community and we number over 8000 FAMILIES. Our nuns are from Southern Mexico from a community whose church was built around 1620.

Man do we get around.

Jim

[Dux]

Am I right in thinking that the Swiss Guard is not only the world's 'smallest' army but also the only 'Private' army in the world?

Or am I totally confused again!I'd be willing to bet that some of those drug lords in South America have bigger "armies" at their disposal.

[Dux]

Marriage is VERY serious in the Church--unlike in every Protestant denomination I know of, for Catholics it's considered a full Sacarment, equal to Baptism, Ordination, Communion, etc. (There are seven sacraments, and I should remember them better as I probably earned about 1000 years in Purgatory with the rest of my prayer group at that dioscesan retreat where for our skit about the sacraments we did "The Quick and Dirty Seven Sacraments"--hey, it was obvious! And Father John laughed! It was nervous laughter, but it was a laugh!) It's viewed as a representation of the love of God for his Church, and as such it's not supposed to be something entered into lightly or abandoned lightly. John Paul II even took it so far as to say that sex within marriage (whether primarily intended for procreation or not) was holy. There's a reason besides some kind of puritanical perversity for ending marriage being so difficult in Catholicism.
I'm not a Protestant - and maybe you didn't mean this the way I'm reading it - but that's kind of an offensive remark to make. I do know many Protestants, they take their marriages very seriously and consider their marriages to be as sacred as their faith in Jesus. I don't know of any Protestant Church that takes marriage vows lightly, which is why many provide pre-marriage counseling so that those entering marriage don't do so unless they are sure this is what they want. Protestant churches do not approve of divorce - but do not ostracize their members for getting them either.

[leahiniowa]

At first I felt that way about what she said too, like, "what do you mean Protestants don't take it seriously?" But then I thought about the entire historical thing, that the sacraments are something (which I confess I'm not clear about the definition of) in which the Protestants felt there should be less of.

For Jews (and this is something that Christians differed from us, at least initially), marriage, while sacred ahd holy, is a religious legal contract and divorce, while discouraged, has always been allowed. We do take marriage extremely seriously and do believe that it is life long. However, there are provisions which allow the dissolution of marriage under certain circumstances - such as abuse, infidelity, etc.

[zankoku]

For Jews (and this is something that Christians differed from us, at least initially), marriage, while sacred ahd holy, is a religious legal contract and divorce, while discouraged, has always been allowed. We do take marriage extremely seriously and do believe that it is life long. However, there are provisions which allow the dissolution of marriage under certain circumstances - such as abuse, infidelity, etc.

Forgive me if I am wrong but as I remember they didn't divorce for infidelity (adultry) They stoned them to death.

It would cut down on alimony.<g>

Jim

[leahiniowa]

During the time of the temple, if a woman was suspected of committing adultery, she was taken into the temple and G-d's name was written in the dust of the temple. The dust was then put into a drink which when ingested, if she was guilty, both she and the man would die terribly (no matter where he was). If she was innocent, she would have a baby in one year.

After the temple, there was no stoning, the alternative was the option of divorce. And that was always open to the woman of a man who cheated on her (b/c if the woman he cheated with was not married, it didn't count as adultery b/c men in theory are allowed to have more than one wife).

Stoning was reserved for situations where someone was fooling around with the daughter of a priest (cohen) and I don't remember all the details. But stoning in the Torah is different from Islamic stoning. Anyone who was executed by Jewish law was 1) given a drink to render them completely unconscious and in the case of stoning, was thrown off a high rock, or cliff.

[zankoku]

Leah, Thanks for the clarification. Afraid I don't know all teh whys and wherefores of the Torah.

[zankoku]

This has been a great thread as I think we all learned some things, at least I have.

Jim

[leahiniowa]

Jim,

NOBODY knows all the details and why's of the Torah! Which is why many rabbis end up being specialists, like doctors. :eek:

I was really glad to remember about, and see, the Lion monument again, b/c I remember how gorgeous it was, with a little pond in front of it, and how affected I was by it. I think the guards were actually ripped to shreds by the crowd.

[zankoku]

I had heard they were killed honorably in battle. I did not know that they were butchered by a mob. No soldier deserves that kind of death.

[Anareth]

What can happen is an annulment

Anareth

In our diocese there is a thorough investigation and it is not headed by the Bishop. It is much different than what my folks went through back in the early 60's.

My Dad was not a Catholic and had been divorced. He and my mother married in a civil ceremony. My Dad raised my brother and I as Catholics and wanted to convert. It took a lot for that to happen and then in order for both of my folks to be able to receive the sacraments, they had to experience a very painful trial period. (They had to live as brother and sister. Both my brother and I were away at school.

YEARS later, they received the authroization for them to be married in teh Church. Some of the information I got from my brother a couple of years ago. My dad passed away 3 years ago and my mom about 10 years before. They had been married for 55 years and they went through a lot but remained faithful to the Church.

Things have changed and people do not have to go through what they did.

Jim


Uh...what does that have to do with annulments? The original marriage was for starters not religious and as such not really a marriage in the Church's eyes (though they do consider non-Catholic religious services as binding.) There was nothing there to annull. Annullments happen when you're trying to end a church marriage.

And the 'unlike' is relating (as you can tell by where the comma falls) to the second half of the sentence, that a Protestant marriage isn't a Sacrament. In the Catholic Church, Sacraments are things like Baptism, Holy Orders, the Annointing of the Sick, Reconciliation, Communion--Marriage is included with those. Protestants are basically doing what Leah describes--they're entering a religious legal contract. Catholics are doing something as serious as consuming the Body and Blood (we have rules for that, too. Remember for us that isn't bread and wine, it's literally the Body and Blood of Jesus. Hence the at times touchy rules about who can and can't receive, though of course the priest isn't checking at every Mass.) Marriage is supposed to be even harder to get out of than Holy Orders. For us it's more than a legal contract made in a religious setting. I'm not saying that Protestants aren't serious, but that they have a different view on what a church wedding really means. It might be because they don't really have Masses the way Catholics (and IIRC the Orthodox) do, either.

Mostly, Protestants dumped the Sacramental part of Church and focused on the Liturgy of the Word. Catholics have that, but it's secondary and a lead-in to the Liturgy of the Eucharist. There's nothing metaphorical about "Jesus is present" when it comes to a Catholic Mass, He literally is. When you have a wedding Mass, Jesus is there and directly involved. It shouldn't be something you can walk away from without a REALLY good reason, and it shouldn't be something that should be done easily. That's also why it's traditionally hard for non-Catholics to marry Catholics, and why the contract's still used by most priests conducting mixed marriages. (That is, if you want to marry a Catholic, you not only have to take the required counseling courses all couples have to complete before you can marry, you have to sign an agreement that says you will never interfere with your spouse's right to practice their Catholicism, and any children you have will be raised Catholic. I had a friend who decided to get married in a Baptist church because her fiance wasn't' comfortable signing. For me, it would have been a deal-breaker, but I'd be unlikely to date the son of a Baptist preacher in the first place.)

[zankoku]

According to the Church (at that time) My Father and his ex were baptized in non-Catholic churches. Back in those days (prior to Vatican II) things were a lot tougher. Many priests and Bishops at that time were very hard nosed (best word I could come up with).

Catholics do take serious the wording What God has joined together, let no man put asunder.

When you speak of the Eucharist, you are right. Christ is not only present but going through the sacrifice again. People call it the Mass, when in fact it is the Sacrifice of the Mass. The Mass is celebrated on an altar not a table. You eat on a table. You sacrifice on an altar.

Christ is the Paschal Lamb because he died at Passover.

That also gets into why Catholics used to abstain from meat on Friday. But that is getting into Theology and I am not going there. The lecture series will cost you. <g>

[leahiniowa]

Well, I made one mistake about the Lion Monument - they weren't guarding the Pope when they died. Here's what I found:

Just northeast of Löwenplatz is one of the highlights of Luzern, the terribly sad Lion Monument. This dying beast draped over his shield, with a broken spear sticking out of his flank, was hewn out of a cliff face in 1821 to commemorate the 700 Swiss mercenaries killed in Paris in 1792. On August 10 that year, French revolutionaries stormed the royal palace, the Tuileries; in the face of the mob, the Swiss palace guards were ordered to lay down their arms by Louis XVI and were subsequently massacred. This would be a movingly tranquil spot, with its foliage and gently rippling pool in front, were it not for the fact that it’s the single most touristed place in the entire city.

[zankoku]

Thanks for the clarification. Man what we are learning here. It is great.

Jim

[leahiniowa]

That's one of the wonderful things about discourse with intelligent people. You always seem to learn a lot. I've learned so much in a couple of years by being on this website, some of it (like the Lion statue) I looked up myself in order to enhance or clarify a topic, and most of it from what other people say.

The other thing I like is that, when I really want to make a decision and want to be sure my thoughts are completely sure about it, I'll make a thread on it and see what other people have to say. Even if people don't necessarily convince me, I feel good that I really covered all the potential angles (more or less) by the ideas that people here have.

Jim, I'm still amazed by what your parents did. We Jews spend periods of time (usually about 2 weeks, but it can be much longer after the birth of a baby) living together as brother and sister, and so I have an idea of the discipline that entails.

Even for people who are not Catholic or even don't believe in G-d, it is still impressive that people are able to make sacrifices like that for a religious/moral/ethical principle. It's using your mind to control your body,which is a tremendous asset, IMO. Of course, we do that a lot in our religion, so it's easy for me to understand and empathize with.

You must be quite proud of your parents to have that much self-control and will power.

[zankoku]

You must be quite proud of your parents to have that much self-control and will power.

Oh yes. Both my brother and I are. We miss them but when Dad passed away at 94, we weren't sad as we knew where he wasgoing. He went Home.

And my Dad was a better Catholic than most born Catholics. He lived his religion, even before he converted. My folks were great models.

Shalom

Jim