Fandom Gripe!!!!!

[Mitch]

GAH!

Sometimes people get me sooooooooo riled!

Now don't get me wrong ... I'm all for canon. But when people use "But Anne never wrote about ... " as an excuse for something *really* dumb, I wanna throttle 'em.

Example:

One of the posters in one of my Weyrs made mention of their personae using a type of sunscreen lotion.

You'd have thought that said personae had Impressed a red dragon!!!!!

Granted, Anne never said word one in any of the books about any sort of sunscreen ... at least not that I can recall. Granted the Pernese (pre-AIVAS anyway) didn't know UV rays from TV rays ;)

But just how stupid do people think the Pernese are? Yes, their tech is low ... but if the bloody Egyptians can pull off building those great pyramids with little more than rope and people power, I *think* the Pernese can manage a nature-based sunscreen, yanno? Some poor fair-skinned chap somewhere on Pern was *bound* to get desperate and try a few unorthodox things.

And the sunscreen thing isn't the only time I've had someone go "The Pernese don't have that." Granted they wouldn't have our current technical understanding of things, but it doesn't take much wits to note cause and effect and act accordingly. The ultimate reason "why" may escape them ... but they don't need to know the deep dark tech secrets of things to get the job done!!!!!!!!!

ARG! :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[Anareth]

Well, in our Weyr, I'd want some background (hey, Eliara could probably whip something up, but she'd need a reason) but if we just did things that Anne has done, it would be really, really limiting. And if it's a post-AIVAS Weyr, come on. They have WATCHES now, for cryin' out loud. Someone'll figure out sunscreen (and probably tanning lotion, too, since humans have this bizarre need to bake themselves.) After AIVAS, pretty much anything is fair game. Actually even pre-AIVAS low-tech stuff is fair game, and I include things like firearms in that (if they have the chemical basis for gunpower someone is gonna figure it out. That's just the way the human mind works.)

I don't mind to resorting to BASS for things like "why are there only five dragon colors", which ultimately goes back to 'because Anne picked those five, that's why, and if you want purple dragons go play on another planet.' But when it comes to the littlest tiny detail ("we never see anyone in Anne's books eating asparagus!") give me a break.

[Valihi Wingsecond]

Actually, there is a mention of the use of a sunscreen-like substance in one of the books... As I remember it, when Merelen and Petiron were visiting Merelen's relatives in Southern Boll, wasn't Robinton (or maybe it was Petiron, Faranth, it's been so long since I've read the book! :eek:) complaining about having to wear some sort of lotion as well as a broad-brimmed hat?

Anyone have an exact reference? :redfruit: :erm:

But yes, I do hate when fandom writers get into a rut of being limited just because something isn't specifically seen in the novels or short stories... It's called assumed logic... If it's logical, and Anne hasn't directly said "No, never ever!" assume it's okay! :banghead:

[Weyrwoman Kalina]

I remember something like that Valihi... so I think you're right.

But I also cannot stand it when the excuse is "Well, that was never in the books" or "Anne NEVER said anything about that"

:roll:

In my Weyr, if something is believable and has a semi good reason I'm all for it! Heck, it makes things more interesting!

[Tabra]

Someone once defined canon as "If the books don't say it can't be done, then it can'. That always worked for me.

[Greenrider Tresa]

Canon is a nice guideline, but I don't see any reason to limit myself to it if something makes sense. Post-Aivas High Reaches 12th Pass has baby carriers and punching bags even if Anne never mentioned them. I let chocolate pass unchallenged since it's not worth arguing over. No reason why someone couldn't have thought of either one to make things easier and to vent stress, respectively.

But if there's no logical reason or need for it to be there, it's out...Don't see why Pern needs owls or ferrets, for example. While snow wherries fit in as normal wherries adapted to another environment, not renamed unchanged ferrets. (More HR12 examples, and a bit of venting on newbies all in one. :))




Tresa

[Tabra]

I'd say 12th pass would have to write it's own canon though, since Anne didn't. But if you play in 9th pass or earlier, the books are there to draw on. IF you can work through the rosebuds.

[NeouofPern]

I have to make some sort of opposite gripe. When people say they're completely canon, and you look at their Weyr, and it's pathetic, not Pern at all.

[Greenrider Tresa]

I'd say 12th pass would have to write it's own canon though, since Anne didn't. But if you play in 9th pass or earlier, the books are there to draw on. IF you can work through the rosebuds.
Yes but even then there's some wriggle room and we can decide where to draw the line...Whitefalls Weyr feels no need to acknowledge anything written after Moreta, but we're already in the south and even have a Dolphin Hall.




Tresa

[prekharper]

I need to speak up in favor of some canon items. For example, the sunscreen: yes, there's probably some sort of sunscreen, but I'd have to hear more about the circumstances in which it was mentioned, and by whom. I once belonged to a club that had very high full-post rate, but dealt mainly with "my dragon meets yours and we meet each other while sunbathing" -- during a Pass. To me, the issue there was not the presence of sunscreen, but the complete disregard for what a dragonrider's life would entail; if the percentage of sunbathing posts was any indication, those dragonriders had far too much free time on their hands.

Perhaps the best way to look at it is as the owner of another former club explained it: "It's Pern -- not earth with dragons."

[Greenrider Tresa]

Very true, Prekharper. Which is why Earth values shouldn't be applied to Pern. If any of my riders gets to do any sunbathing during a pass, it's because they were washing a stubborn dragon in full daylight, and had their arms bare.
I once went after some very good posters for forgetting and using Earth curses, but their plots are always workable in context. Busy riders, crafters doing their craft, Holders who have to spend time actually running a hold instead of with theirfamilies... :)



Tresa

[Shalyn]

During Weyrling Training, I had my Weyrlings do a type of Olympics - it made for good competition, and made sense. The only place I called them Weyrling Olympics was in the post title - but hey, if it was good enough for the Greeks, it's good enough for Pern.

And actually, though they are low-technology, they are not Stone-Age. There's no electricity, but I can see mechanical things. I was thinking of having a Craftsperson in the Lapidary arts - and it works, even for Pern. Granted, what I know is all run electrically, but jewelry-making, cabbing, gem faceting has been done for centuries. Therefore, the tools may be more primitive but they're there.

Sunscreen? It was most likely developed by the original colonists - they would've discovered it the same way they discovered numbweed. I can see someone working on..well, anything, maybe food, maybe oiling their dragon and making a mixture of...'stuff', and realizing "hey, I didn't burn today". Maybe the Pernese version of dandelion fluff got mixed in with the oil, or something.

That's how most things are invented. By accident.

[GoldriderAria]

It sounds like we're all in a general sort of agreement. Personally, I like playing things "close to" canon (but obviously not 'exact'). It allows for a game to retain the feel of Pern, but also allows for growth in the game and the addition of things that 'could' be there that just weren't described in the books.

Though I too have heard some bizarre things from players in discussion of what is and isn't canon and what was and wasn't on Pern. I did have someone trying to insist that Wine on Pern wasn't really alcoholic... even after reading the full description of the Benden brewery! That was just a very odd situation.

But yes, canon should be a guideline, not a crutch! I've been fortunate in that I haven't had more than 1-2 "sunbathing" posts in any Weyr I've played in...ever. "Dragons" sunning yes....not the people. *grins*

And even minor electricity is possible in a Weyr that is "AIVAS failed or was never discovered." Master Benderel's batteries/telegraph system were invented before AIVAS. :) So definitely the Pernese were ingenuitive enough to come up with quite a bit on their own!

I also *entirely* agree with the statement that Earth values (and a lot of Earth stuff really) should not (at least not usually! I won't make an absolute statement. There may be reasonable exceptions.) be applied to Pern. I recall a situation once where a player pulled 20th Century Earth LAW out in the middle of a situation he'd created that had put one of his characters in trouble.... because he'd changed his mind and didn't want the character pulled out of power. Even though it didn't apply to the situation on Pern at all.

~Aria

[Nenwen]

In Dragonsdawn, the med techs had to womp up a sunscreen from native ingredients due to some settlers being too enthusiastic about building lives in their new home. I forget what page it's on but it's in my PB copy. :wave:

[Ian]

On the sunbathing issue, weren't the riders in RSR/DE sunbathing before they got :erm: carried away (and then attacked by a lion)? Unfortunately I can't lay hands on the book right now, but I seem to recall some mention of a lotion or oil being used there, though that might've been for massage (wish I could find the book, but it's not with all the other Anne books for some reason :roll: )

[Nenwen]

that was Dragonseye and they weren't sunbathing. They were in "flagrant delecto" at the time. Think that's the delicate term anyhow. And they were attacked by a pride of wild cats, not sure what type tho...Ted Tubberman tampered with a bunch of them, ya know. And the lotion they used, I think, was for easier access to certain body parts/cavities.

[sushikitten]

In flagrante delicto.

[Nenwen]

In flagrante delicto.


thanks...I wasn't sure of the spelling or if it was the right phrase.

[Larken]

I'm going to believe thats something naughty, and try to make sure my eyes weren't soiled. XD

I have a question. Pre-AIVAS (or no AIVAS at all), would some people have glasses? Someone in my Weyr asked about it, and I said it might have been possible, but most dragonriders were pretty much 'perfect'. I didn't say she couldn't, but it was probably a rarity. Was I right?

[Anareth]

Er. Wansor wears glasses, doesn't he?

Okay, Benjamin Franklin designed bifocals, spectacles have been around longer than that. The Pernese have glass-fabricating technology, so they could probably shape lenses. As to whether a DRAGONRIDER would wear them, er. There I would be less inclined to say yes. Because they'd be a bit of an effort to make, I would think glasses would be limited to people who significantly needed them (people like me, who can't see very far without correction), and a dragonrider who was that badly impaired would have trouble flying Thread, not to mention getting goggles to fit over specs without knocking them around.

[Lady Arwyn]

I didn't need glasses until I was almost 14, the teenage years are when most folks find out they need glasses. My hubby says he started needing glasses in his junior or senior year of high school (age 16/17). Candidates would be Searched and Impressed before anyone knew that they would need glasses, I'm sure there would be plenty of riders who wear them. Plus older riders who need reading glasses.

And since they wear goggles as part of their gear anyway (F'nor's goggles saved his eyes during the Red Star incident), why not make them corrective goggles? Those are easy enough to make.

[Yonuh Adisi Fiend Jedi]

On the sunscreen issue, in Dragon Song, didn't Menolly take the oil from some of the fish to make a primitive sunscreen and oil for the Firelizards? And I think I remember her mentioning that she wished she had the herbs that were used in the hold to make it better smelling.

I do not remember the exact words and I don't have my Dragon Song book handy.

On the glasses issue, I don't think Wansor wore glasses, I haven't seen a mention of it though like my copy of Dragon Song, my other Dragon Rider books are also inaccessable at the moment.

[Kath]

Er. Wansor wears glasses, doesn't he?
As to whether a DRAGONRIDER would wear them, er. There I would be less inclined to say yes.

Well, we do have in-canon evidence of a dragonrider whose vision seems less than perfect, or at least not quite 20-20 - Long-eyed F'rad. He may have been able to spot thread at a distance, but I'll bet he couldn't read a thing at less than arms length.

Given that people's vision does generally deteriorate with age, I'd expect some of the older dragonriders to be retired from threadfall duties on those grounds. But there's quite a way to go between needing glasses for close work at age 50+ and being blind as a bat without them.

[Larken]

Ah, thank you. :)

I'm not sure if Wansor wore glasses. By SoP, he was pretty much blind, even though he could 'sense' the others. It was described as him having 'clouded eyes'.

[Grey Bear]

Wansor sounds like he had cataracts.

I personally love reading some of the more "out there" fan clubs. Such as the Weyr with the hot and cold running water (well, thats okay), the lifts (eh?), the spa (whaaat?), the jacuzzi (***?), the computer room filled with computers and printers (meh?), the gourmet chef (no, I'm not joking) AND the CD players. Less Dragonriders of Pern and more Club Pern.

Then theres the ones - theres always a million of these - where all the adults have kicked it and the teenagers are thus left to bring the world of Pern back from the brink of annihilation - you can read that as Dawson's Weyr or as a rip off of the Tribe.

Then, of course, you have the ones where AIVAS didn't exist. These I can handle. The ones I can't handle are places where AIVAS did exist and everyone has every single conceivable luxury. It doesn't work like that, people. I even came across one where AIVAS was discovered, made his announcements and then got destroyed because the volcano took a fancy to smelting his circuits.

But the piece du resistance has to the one that I found in 2002. Not sure if its still up there, but the whole premise was this: banished dragonriders are sent to the Eastern Rim Islands where they establish a new Weyr. Fine, its been done...but wait...they find a STARGATE on this island and thus go merrily to other worlds with their Dragons!

***?

GB

[Something Evil]

Oh my...

Would you have any links that you might be willing to share?

[Lady Arwyn]

My Weyr is one of those. It's a post-AIVAS Weyr in a world where the FSP returned... and built a Weyr according to *their* standards. It has pretty much all those things you mentioned (elevator to the upper Weyrs, computers, intercom systems, hot and cold running water, electricity, and to the dragonriders' consternation, weyrs with living quarters for families including kitchens and all. Even windows through the rock walls!

LOL, it was fun dealing with the FSP/Pernese culture shock. Neither ever quite understood the other.