when is a "Weyr" not a Weyr?

[Miss Scarrlet]

I've seen some interesting clubs come out lately- some more twinkie than most approved under Anne's old rules. At what point should they stop being called 'Weyrs' and start being called some other kind of club?

[Anareth]

For me, it would be when the dragons are no longer gold, bronze, brown, blue, and green, with g for girl and b for boy. If there's any deviation it should be reasonably logical (another white, or a copper or silver might work given what base colors we're working from). If Pern no longer has the Hold/Hall/Weyr social structure, there should be a VERY good explanation for it--ie, it's 2000 years post-AIVAS, or the colonists ended Thread in the first Pass--it should show some thought and logic, not "Wouldn't it be cool if they had malls on Pern?!?"

The minute elves, fairies, werewolves, unicorns, vampires, Companions, or any other fantasy or anime creatures appear, it's not Pern any more.

[HarperBrandyAlexander]

When you have other color dragons it shouldn't be called a Weyr because that is not Pern.

[Kath]

When it's populated by characters barely old enough to shave, let alone fight thread...

[HarperBrandyAlexander]

When it's populated by characters barely old enough to shave, let alone fight thread...


*Grin* As bad as that is, it's still a Weyr... even if it is a badly written Weyr. It's still part of Pern. But when aliens and red dragons start coming in....

[NeouofPern]

When it's populated by characters barely old enough to shave, let alone fight thread...

15 year old Weyrwomen? *shivers*

[Lady Arwyn]

15 year old Weyrwomen? *shivers*
Hey, technically it's possible. Incredibly unlikely but possible. But yeah, there an awful lot of them out there in fandom.

[Kalli]

Well considering that after the previous Weyrwoman dies/retires, it's the first queen to rise that becomes the next Weyrwoman, not neceesarily the one next in seniority. So yeah, it's possible, extremely cliché and annoying, yes, but it is possible.

[C_ris]

But an older queen rider is likely to take on an advisory role.

[Something Evil]

If a Weyrwoman wants to retire, I'm sure that she would make sure to do it at a time when her prefered successor's dragon would be the next to Rise. And if a Weyrwoman should die, leaving the Weyr with only a very young goldrider..
In that case, I'm sure that the Weyr would ask for a older goldrider to transfer in as the next Weyrwoman instead of accepting that very young goldrider-- who really wouldn't have the experience needed yet.

[Lady Arwyn]

It would be a massive breach of Weyr Tradition to transfer in an older gold simply because the Weyr wanted a more mature/experienced goldrider. Yes, they could transfer one in to advise the young Weyrwoman, but not to *be Weyrwoman. The next gold to rise becomes the Weyrwoman, the bronze who catches her is Weyrleader, like it or lump it. If they could just say "no, she's not ready, lets' get someone else!" what's to stop them from changing Weyrwomen for any reason at all? No, it's not the Weyr's choice.

We see several times in the books where women unsuitable for leadership become the Weyrwoman when others are available. Bedella was mentioned specifically as being worthless (I forget which book). The Weyr has no recourse to replace a bad (or too young) Weyrwoman. I think this is intentional, to avoid politics in the Weyr. If there is a replacement possibility, then you get people who might campaign to bring down a Weyrwoman to put their own choice in for political gain, which is as likely to bring down a good Weyrwoman as a bad one.

While a Weyrwoman might do their best to choose the best time to retire (like right before her "chosen successor's" dragon is clearly about to rise), they might not always have the choice. Young dragons are especially unpredictable in when they will rise, and might rise in the small space between the announcement and the rising of the "chosen". Also, she doesn't necessarily have to announce her retirement. It is simply the next dragon to rise after it becomes clear that the Senior Gold won't rise again. If the rest of the Weyr recognizes this point before the outgoing Weyrwoman has the chance to time her announcement correctly.

Sean and Sorka went out of their way to make it difficult for any person to "choose" who would lead the Weyr. Again, as I said, to avoid too much politics in the Weyr. The method may result in some bad leadership in the Weyrs, which is why they are supposed to work hard to Search for the best young women to stand for the gold egg. When they do their job and train the young goldriders correctly it shouldn't matter which one becomes Senior. It's only when the Search riders let their hormones get ahead of their brains that we get Kylaras and Joras. Bedella was probably Searched under similar circumstances, given the attitude of the Oldtimers towards Searching goldrider potentials commented on in Dragonquest.

[Anareth]

I think Bedella is the one who eventually dies, isn't she? D'ram's weyrmate ,the one with cancer? She may well have been 'useless' (and if it's Lessa doing the describing we can take that with a grain of salt) because she was starting to become ill.

That's one of the rather stupid things about the apparent way the Weyrs are run, at least in the 8th and 9th Passes. Especially when the fate of a good chunk of the planet may depend on the leadership and organization of a Weyr, leaving yourself open to a situation where a fifteen-year-old girl is making important decisions, including possibly influencing who the Weyrleader is, is asking to be wiped out. Teenage girls, fantasy novels notwithstanding, have never been known for their ability to make rational decisions when hormones are involved, even back when fifteen was a reasonable age to be married (generally to much older men, in households that included older women who could do the real business of running things.) It's not just a case of "Oooh, people in the Weyr are unhappy." Their happiness is irrelevant. It's a case of "If this little girl screws up, if we've got a Pass on or coming lots of people could die horrible deaths." Not to mention, expecially if her rider's just a kid, having only one queen is asking for trouble. If a Weyr had only two Weyrwomen, an older and a barely--not-a-Weyrling, and the older died unexpectedly, I suspect that an older queen rider would be brought in VERY quickly, perhaps even selecting one that was known to be due to rise very soon. That way even if by some mischance the teen's gold rises first, there's someone else around who has a better shot at knowing what they're doing.

[Lady Arwyn]

No, Fanna was D'ram's weyrmate who died from cancer. Bedella, as far as we know, is still alive at the end of the latest book. Se was just a useless Weyrwoman.

And as I said, while they can't just replace the girl as Weyrwoman once her gold has flown, bringing in an older goldrider to advise her seems reasonable. And for your analogy to the cultures where a young married girl has older women running her household, the Weyrwoman's main job really is to organize and delegate. The Headwoman seems to do most of the actual domestic work, The only real "work" the Weyrwoman does is record keeping (she probably has assistants for that too) , diplomatic work (the Lord Holders would probably "understand" the idea of a young "bride" just taking over), leading the Queen's Wing (not much of an issue during an Interval) and the care of her dragon. So she WOULD have experienced people around her to keep things going. If it's during an Interval it isn't terribly vital but during a Fall, yeah, it would be very important to have that assistance.

And after a decade or so they'd have a well trained young Weyrwoman who could provide the Weyr with stable leadership for a half a century or longer. Starting out with a very young Weyrwoman could be a major advantage, in the long run. I think choosing the next oldest (in a Weyr with an array of choices) would be the WORST choice, as she will be the next to retire! I would *almost* choose the youngest just for the stability of long leadership, if she had the right temperment and decent leadership abilities. If she were a Kylara or a Jora, well, that would be another matter altogether.

Also, if a Weyr were down to two golds and one died, I would absolutely expect that they not only bring in one gold, but two or three, if they can, it doesn't even matter how old the remaining gold is! If the "native" gold hasn't risen yet and one of the new golds rises before she does, well, she can't claim bias when it's clear a Weyr needs more than one gold to maintain a healthy breeding population.