Canon question

[fuzzypaws]

Hello everyone. I have a question for you. Should a Creche be allowed and if so what about fostering dragon rider's children? It has been raised at my weyr that they want a Creche. I say no it is not canon but they keep telling me it is. What about fostering the weyrbrats with other holds, halls and weyrs to help strengthen the infrastructure? Would love some feedback. Thanks fuzzy

[Dux]

Off the top of my head I would say that a creche would be a necessity of any Weyr. Dragonriders MUST always put therir dragons first, but if you are a female rider what does that mean for your children? You cannot be there all day to care for them, but would try to be there as much as possible. If your child (especially infant/young child) is at another location altogether, it would be hard to catch those off minutes with them. Whereas, if you have a running creche (not much different than daycare that runs 24/7), you can leave yur child when necessary to care for your dragon, and take your child when you are free.


:2cent:

[Mausey]

If a creche is like a nursery they probably have them. Nowhere (that I can recall) does it say at what age children go into fosterage. There are either a lot of wet nurses or the mother is available to nurse. Either way there has to be a place for all the infants to be looked after.

[Hans]

No too much references pertaining to this in the books... The Harper Hall has a nursery school and I found this quote:

One of the features of the Turnover celebrations was that everyone got a chance to play or sing¾even those as young as Robinton and the other nursery children

They definitely had children's chreches during the first years on Pern, Dragonsdawn has several references to them although teh actual word "creche" is only used once :)

What seems to be canon is aunties looking after the youngest kids, the littles and toddlers :) those place are always called nurseries if they are named. This is from Nerilka's Story:

Here, at least, was an island of serenity--well, as serene as twenty-nine babes and toddlers can be. The girls were going about their routine tasks under the watchful gaze of Aunt Lucil and her assistants. With all the babble there, they would not have heard the drums clearly enough to be worried yet. Since the Nursery had its own small kitchen, ...

[Weyrwoman Kalina]

My Weyr has a nursery/creche, and it works out very well.

And, like someone else said, they would be necessary for female riders. If not wet nurses, than at least caretakers for their children. How else would their infants and babies, etc be looked after while they were fighting Thread?

I really can't see the female riders strapping on baby carriers and taking them with them to fight Thread ;) :redfruit:

[DuchessPariah]

No too much references pertaining to this in the books... The Harper Hall has a nursery school and I found this quote:



They definitely had children's chreches during the first years on Pern, Dragonsdawn has several references to them although the actual word "creche" is only used once :)

What seems to be canon is aunties looking after the youngest kids, the littles and toddlers :) those place are always called nurseries if they are named. This is from Nerilka's Story:



Hans, can you clarify something for me, please?

My Weyr is attempting to remain as canon as humanly possible without losing the "fun" that RPing entails. We adhere to the Big Five Colors and many other "canon" ideas. However, we have one very uncanon problem.

Some of our dragonriders have "kept" their children, not fostered them out to Holds and/or Crafts. In a relationship with TWO dragonriders, that would be impossible on Pern... but (at the same time) our characters want to have their children around.

A creche substituting as a sort of daycare center while the dragonriders were working, training, and fighting would make it more conceivable (in *MY* mind) that the dragonriders could in fact do their job AND still parent a child... at least at night after all the training and fighting has finished.

Would a creche make such circumstances more or less canon? Like I said before, we are trying VERY hard to remain canon... but, such issues make everything SO cloudy.

Of course, I am simply asking for opinion here. :) Any help or advice is appreciated.

[Hans]

Alright, I would personally avoid the words creche and day care center :) but would use nursery instead, especially if you want to stay as close to canon as possible.

Talking of canon I suppose dragonriders raising their own kids would be unusual, not impossible, but unusual; the rule being that any children they would have would be fostered. Remember this was not only done to free the dragonriders for fighting and training, a heavy responsibility but it was -- in my honest opinion, and besides fostering being "the rule" on Pern -- in the Weyrs especially done because the death toll is extremely high! We tend to forget that but the death toll among dragonriders was frightfully high. it is something we'd rather forget, we gardly come across in the novels and which certainly won't play a major role in fandom...

Anyway, I already said that two dragonriders raising their child(ren) themselves will have been highly unusual but not unthinkable. But if you want to stay as close to canon as you can you better see this as an exception to the rule, I guess.

This is of course my personal opinion.

[DuchessPariah]

I'm slightly confused by your reply Hans.

Do you say that a "creche" would be more canon if called a "nursery?" So, does that mean it would be better if you had a nursery than if we dropped the idea completely and continued with dragonriders raising their own children? (For the most part, members do not often foster out their children simply because of the work put into the charries that makes them want to KEEP their charries when the odd rider does get preggers. Some do, but most don't.)

[Hans]

You were asking what I thought was most canon. The words creche and daycare center are not, imho. The word nursery is used in the Pern books, so that would seem to be more canon.

Having a nursery has actually nothing to do with riders, or others, raising their own children. Even if your children are kept in the nursery during the day, you can still raise them :)

Again, dragonriders don't (seem to) raise their own children, because of the resons I mentioned. If you want to stay close to canon you should have a situation like that as an exception, not the rule.

That doesn't really mean anything since there are no rules, especially not now anymore, but you did express a wish to stay close to canon, hence my advise. People playing at RP can do whatever they want, that's the advantage of it! :)

[Purpura]

I'd say that the female riders had their children and then when the baby was old enough to start moving around by oneself, they would take the baby down to the nursery area and leave him/her there for socialization and someone to watch over them while the parents were busy with their dragons, coming back for them during free times...I'd also think that the Harpers and nursery care workers would function first as a nursery let the babies play and examine their world, then when the child got older, they'd do simple lessons with songs for preschool age children and then advance to reading and writing and school stuff when the child was old enough to do that.

[Mausey]

I think that rider's keeping the kids would cause them a lot of difficulties. Besides looking after their dragons and fighting thread they also have to wake up during the night (or day if there was a threadfall) to look after kids. It's hard enough looking after little ones when the parents only have one job, but with 2. :eek: Purpura's suggestion would work though, the parents could have the kids for a couple hours while the majority of the care would be given by the nursery aunties.

[DuchessPariah]

Thank you all. You have been VERY helpful. *smiles*

[Mausey]

Here's a bit more info from the DLG. Women in the crafts, mothers could have their babies and after 3 months of primary care, turn it over to a foster mother.

[granath]

They don't have any mother's milk substitutes on Pern. This means that all babies are probably breastfed until at least the age of 1, probably longer. With less than perfect hygiene, mother's milk is definitely the safest food for a baby and young child. In some African cultures children as old as 3 or 4 still breastfeed occasionally. Perhaps the average Pernese baby would be weaned when he or she started walking? That's a fairly common age in many places. However, a dragonrider in a Pass couldn't breastfeed that long, so my guess is that dragonriders would give their babies to a wet-nurse as soon as they were born.

[TamTam]

Huh. It seems that dragonriders generally foster their children, although I can't say exactly where it comes from. Here are some examples from my (faulty) memory. I think a lot of them come from "Dragonquest":

Manora fosters a lot of children. Lessa is dejected because she had to foster Felessan instead of taking care of him herself. Many sons in the Lord Holder's bloodline are fostered in order to learn the ins and outs of being Lord of a hold.

Huh. *Goes looking for her copy of Dragonquest*

[C_ris]

They don't have any mother's milk substitutes on Pern. This means that all babies are probably breastfed until at least the age of 1, probably longer. With less than perfect hygiene, mother's milk is definitely the safest food for a baby and young child. In some African cultures children as old as 3 or 4 still breastfeed occasionally. Perhaps the average Pernese baby would be weaned when he or she started walking? That's a fairly common age in many places. However, a dragonrider in a Pass couldn't breastfeed that long, so my guess is that dragonriders would give their babies to a wet-nurse as soon as they were born.
or when one becomes available.

[Lady Arwyn]

Another problem with riders keeping their own children, most of them only have one-room weyrs. They live high on the cliffs, and young children would not be safe there. Most weyrs are accessable only on dragonback. Only the highest ranking riders (Weyrleaders, Wingleaders, Weyrwoman and goldriders) have multi-room weyrs.

Dragonriding seems to cause major fertility problems in female riders. Most miscarry even before they know they are pregnant, and uterine scarring from repeated miscarriages would cause permanant infertility after only a few years. I would guess that a greenrider would have less chance of having a baby (or more) than a goldrider, since they go Between more often. The only reason Mirrim managed to have a baby is because a dolphin detected her pregnancy VERY early.

Athletic women and women under stress also have fertility problems, and dragonriding would be considered a VERY athletic activity.

I would think that Betweening would cause problems with breastfeeding, the cold and shock, repeated many times every week, and on Threadfall days, sometimes dozens of times per day. And when breastfeeding a young child, you have to be available every few hours, waking day and night for feeding. When I fed my 3, those first couple of months it was all I could do to feed them and recover, no way I could have cared for a dragon as well.

And if you're breastfeeding, you can't just "stop" for part of the day and return to it at night unles you're looking for a world of pain and massive leakage. Imagine going Between with a wet shirt/leathers right over your nipples :eek:

Overall, the time and energy it takes to be a dragonrider doesn't leve enough time for a child, a rider trying to raise her own child might even be considered to be some form of child abuse/neglect on Canon Pern. The societal norms dicatate that the child has a right to a 24/7 parent, even if that parent is a foster-mom with 10 other foster kids to look after.

I would guess that a dragonrider would never start breastfeeding, given just long enough to heal from childbirth, (3 weeks?) then put back in the Wings full time. Her first responsibility is to her dragon, then to her Wing and the Weyr. A child is a luxury. Most Wingleaders/Weyrleaders would not likely put up with a rider trying to parent a child more than occasional visits.

She would certainly be allowed to visit the child as she has time, but the child's primary parent would be the foster-mother, the biologial mother would be seen, emotionally, more like an aunt. And the father acknowledged only to keep it from marrying half-siblings, if the father is known.

[fuzzypaws]

Very good points. That is why they fostered early and also why the weyrs kept wet nurses. IF a dragonrider carried to term and if the baby survived where is the time to care for child, fly thread, take care of a dragon (they require lots of care) and have about 5 min a day for yourself, if you don't foster the child then you would loose your mind in about a month. That was one of the sacrifices that the dragonriders made when they impressed their dragon. That is part of the reason the dragon riders have their food and clothing and things taken care of by the weyr. Part of the trade-off.

[granath]

Now I'm wondering how long a woman could lactate continuously, if she was always given a new infant to nurse before weaning off the previous one? Part of the job of any lower caverns women would surely be to stand in as wet nurses for any pregnant riders. Although to be fair, there wouldn't be very many. 3-6 queenriders and a few greens who would most likely be infertile, by the end of the 9th Pass.

[Piyer]

Part of the job of any lower caverns women would surely be to stand in as wet nurses for any pregnant riders. Although to be fair, there wouldn't be very many. 3-6 queenriders and a few greens who would most likely be infertile, by the end of the 9th Pass.

Add two more groups to that: women who for one reason or another cannot produce enough milk for their babies, and women who die in childbirth (like Jaxom's mother).

[granath]

True, but the holds have their own wet nurses. :)

[Piyer]

True, but the holds have their own wet nurses. :)

*nods*
I was just citing the one example of death during childbirth that jumped to mind, otherwise I was referring to the Weyrs.

[Lady Arwyn]

I alwas hadthe impression that there are hundreds of wome (and nearly as many men) in the Lower Caverns. Considering that the losing riders of each flight go ogg to find, ah, solace, with the partner of thier choice after losing, and that there are a lot of flights, no birth control other than Between abortions and a high infant mortality rate, I would think that there are alot of lactating women at any one time, more than enough to cover the female riders. Even if every green was ridden by a woman, few of them would be able to carry a child to term. There wouldn't be a whole lot of babies at one time to wetnurse.

Wetnurses can be one of three types; women who lost their own child in childbirth, women who have enough milk to nurse their own child as well as the wetnursed child (like Jaxom and his milk-brother) and women who are natural wetnurses, like myself, who, after having one child, never quite stop lactating and can restart at full production on very short notice.

There also might be women who can wean a child at age 2 or so in order to feed a new infant that needs a wetnurse.

In many cultures it is customary to breastfeed a child for 4-5 years, until a sibling is born, or even after a sibling is born (but the new baby gets first dibs). I have heard of women who live in these cultures who never stop lacating from early teenage years until menopause/death. Continuous breastfeeding this way can put off menopause indefinately.

I doubt that there are "wetnurses" in the way that it is a job description, I think any woman in the right circumstances at the right time would be tapped to wetnurse an infant in need.

[Ryuu]

btw, what ever happened to cow's (heardbeast's) milk as a substitute??? :erm: After all, that was what was used in the States for over 60+years before breast feeding became socially accepted again & is still the majority of the source of infant formula.

[granath]

btw, what ever happened to cow's (heardbeast's) milk as a substitute??? :erm: After all, that was what was used in the States for over 60+years before breast feeding became socially accepted again & is still the majority of the source of infant formula.

It's better to stick to what you know is safe. They probably don't pasteurize their milk so it's full of bacteria adults can handle but probably kids can't. Mother's milk is the best food a baby can have, it's what the baby's digestive tract is best able to handle, and it's practically sterile (the bacteria it does contain are more probably beneficial than not). Cow's milk has been linked to juvenile diabetes, allergies, etc. Mother's milk for the first six months of a baby's life is very important for immune system development. It's great that there are substitutes available for women who don't have the milk to give, or who find it impossible to breastfeed. We don't have wetnurses anymore, more's the pity.

[Ryuu]

Mother's milk for the first six months of a baby's life is very important for immune system development. It's great that there are substitutes available for women who don't have the milk to give, or who find it impossible to breastfeed. We don't have wetnurses anymore, more's the pity.yeah, but the apparent alternative (if your reread DF) for the lack of a wetnurse was to let the kid starve to death--especially the Lord Holder (Jaxom) :eek:

If that were to have happened, I think Lessa would've taken over Ruatha (Impressed to Ramoth or not)--F'lar be damned!!!

[Lady Arwyn]

Goat's milk has long been considered an acceptable alternative, a friend of my mom's couldn't breastfeed (medical reason) and didn't "believe" in formula (it was the corporate conspiracy :darkside: ) so she kept a nanny goat and the baby had fresh goat's milk.

But on Pern they don't exactly have bottles and silicone nipples on hand, feeding a baby that way would be a pain, it's a LOT easier to just find another nursing woman to take over.

As far as modern times, with so many women choosing not to breastfeed for so many reasons, but knowing the medical and developmental benefits of breastmilk. it is becoming more popular for upper-class women to hire a "lactating nanny" (usually a young woman who gave her child up for adoption) for the child's infancy. A modern wetnurse, they just don't call it that anymore. There are also "breastmilk banks" where people can get frozen breastmilk to feed to thier babies. VERY expensive, but not as expensive as the "lactating nanny".

[fuzzypaws]

To answer the question on how long can a wet-nurse lactate, litterally forever under the right conditions. The mammary glands only need the stimulation of the hormones to produce. In an emergency a male can and will lactate. Think about that one for a while. And the people of pern if they lived in caverns (which we know they did) had a constant inside tempurature of 56 degrees. This is not cold enough for the milk to not spoil so bacteria would be multiplying even if it did take longer for the milk to spoil. Wet nurses had the advantage of providing the added support to the infants immune system. Wet nurses are still used today. In most neo-natal ICU's there are a list of mothers that donate their milk to the preemies so they have a better chance in life.

[DuchessPariah]

0.0

Men can lactate?!

[granath]

0.0

Men can lactate?!

With hormone treatments they can. :devil: It only very rarely happens naturally, although when men were released in extremely weak condition from the concentration camps after WW2, some started lactating when they got richer food. Something about testosterone production shutting down during extreme starvation. Maybe a medical professional could explain this better.

[Mitch]

I'm with DuchessPariah on this one ...

MEN CAN LACTATE?????!!!!! :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :faint: :faint: :faint: :faint: :faint:

[C_ris]

:eek: :faint: Men can lactate??? :eek: :faint:

[Hans]

With the right treatment and some surgery virtually everything is possible, and I mean everything.

[C_ris]

With the right treatment and some surgery virtually everything is possible, and I mean everything.
*hides from surgeons*:runaway:

[ChrisG]

From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_lactation)
The phenomenon of male lactation in humans has become more common in recent years due to the use of medications that stimulate a human male's mammary glands. It is common knowledge that human males have nipples. It is not so often understood that they also have mammary glands. Ordinarily the mammary tissue is low in volume and cannot be noticed. Under the appropriate hormonal stimulus, the hormonal stimulus that nature provides to human females when they become pregnant and give birth, the mammary glands of human males can also produce milk. The volume of milk produced will be small relative to the amount that a female can produce.

The most common circumstance under which lactation is induced is when hormonal treatments are given to men suffering from prostate cancer. Female hormones are used to retard the production of cancerous prostate tissue, but the same hormones also stimulate the mammary glands. Male-to-female transsexuals may also produce milk due to the hormones they take to reshape their bodies. Extreme stress has also been known to be a cause of male lactation, as evidenced upon the return of American POWs from the Korean and Vietnam Wars, where physical activity and food were in short supply, back to their homes afterwards.

The phenomenon of male lactation occurs in some non-human species, and the lactating males may assist in the nursing of their infants. One species of fruit bat (Dyacopterus spadiceus) is notable for this reason. According to CBC Radio, lactation and even nursing have occasionally been observed in humans. Just like Granath said. :ugg: Thought these things were just for decoration. :blush:

[C_ris]

Just like Granath said. :ugg: Thought these things were just for decoration. :blush:
same here! :eek:

[AnnMarie]

Just like Granath said. :ugg: Thought these things were just for decoration. :blush:


I thought they were for something else..... :devil: