four letter honorifcs

[Aurelia]

I find this rather unrealistic - all the male dragonriders in the game have four-letter honorifics, like V'kai, N'eth, D'kor, and B'rak. In a real Weyr, that would never happen.

[jjmouse]

:erm:


You don't read these books, do you?

Or are you just posting anything? Just to post?

[Aurelia]

uh...WHAT?

Let me start off by saying that I believe that every post I've added so far has made sense, and I don't post just to post. Also, this has to do with the actual game, and I was ranting about it because it annoyed me like hell. Also, it's a true fact that there are only riders with four lettle honorifcs in this game-no rider names like G'lanar or K'nebel. And when you say that I don't read this books, ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING?!?!

**stomps off and seethes in a corner**

[jjmouse]

Well, your outright rudeness aside, I asked because if you read these books, then you know that the 4 letter honorific name is more common than n0t.

The DLG lists some 150 or so rider names. Only something like 45 or so have more than 4 letters. And of those 45 or so names that are listed as having more than 4 letters, 8-10 of those names are only 5 letters.


Babies on Pern are named by taking part of each parent's name, and putting them together to form a new name.

But as you do read these books, I am sure you already know this.


And yes. I realize that the DLG is not up to date.

[Anareth]

And, hon, hate to be the one to point this out, but as your join date is this month, and you've already amassed more than 800, at least 200 of which seem to be since yesterday or the day before, when I could've sworn it was 600-something, and you are cropping up more often outside the WLT than in it, you do seem to be posting an awful, awful lot, especially a lot of one-line responses. (If yours is the last post in a thread and you want to add something, don't hit reply again. There's an edit button on the post. Use that instead, and you won't be mistaken for a spammer.)

[Mayhem]

Watch out mind Anareth, All I said was that bendenbeauty was posting a little too often, I was agreed with, yet I STILL got my head bitten off for it. Maybe you will be different huh!

Just a quiet warning for ya.

[Monkeysrule]

Her posts in the DRoP forum have so far been good, even if they are short. I think you are being unnecessarily accusitory. There's nothing wrong with one-liner posts, as long as they contribute to on-topic discussion.

[Monkeysrule]

Haven't you ever heard of a newbie posting frenzy? Some people can get over 100 posts in a day. Usually it tapers off, but sometimes it lasts a long time. Why are you all so annoyed with someone who likes to post a lot?

Sorry all for jumping in this...just thought you were being harsh.

[Mayhem]

The end of the day, I have said to bendenbeauty before that she is posting a lot *shrugs*

I aint being accusatory, I was warning Anareth to be careful is all. It does get a little annoying when EVERY thread in a forum is posted by one person, but at the end of the day it's not really harming anyone.

Before I am accused of being a bitch to someone, I would like for people to read my posts properly.

If I had been being a bitch it would have been along the lines of 'BlahblahpostingtoomuchblahblahSTOP IOT'

As it was NOT that, I think it shows I was not bitching.

I try not to pick fights with people... Too much energy wasted doin that in RL without doin it here!

[Mayhem]

And then I would have to come biatch slap you with a large salmon :evil: :D

*Grins*

[Monkeysrule]

:laugh:

*eats salmon*

[Anareth]

Thanks for the warning, Red, but I really don't worry about getting snapped at.

Yes, it's annoying. Especially when there's nothing substantial to the posts. Or they suggest the poster hasn't read what came before carefully, in such a hurry they are to post again. And "newbie posting frenzies" are hardly an excuse. Proper newbie etiquette is to lurk a bit and get the feeling of a forum before flooding it. It's irritating to have to wade through a flood of one-liners, often by the same person one after the other, and it's annoying to have so many new threads interesting ones get bumped down or off the page, especially by stuff like "whose your favorite _________". Organized quasi-popularity contests like Lady Arwyn's Weyrleader and Weyrwoman Survivor at least prompted good discussion.

And while I'm venting anyway, bendenbeauty, I know from the fan fiction forum you're capable of typing and using proper English. Better than a lot of people on-line, anyway. Forum flooding is at least more tolerable when it's legible. There is a shift key on the keyboard. (Woah, I just channeled damoodymom.)

Bitching? Possibly. But if it seems bitchy, best pray you never draw the attention and ire of GreyBear or Cavatica. In that unholy trinity, I'm by far the meek little kitten.

[Zei]

Would this be the wrong time to agree with Anareth? :erm: I mean, look at me; I only have 450 odd posts, and I've been here since last December. You, BeBe, have almost 900, and you've been here since the beginning of the month. Something's not right here...

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

Ok, I refuse to get into personal accusations here... but back on the original topic -

What the shards is WRONG with 4 letter names?? Just because you have a dragon/rider name fetish, does not mean that they all have to be strung out into quadruple syllables. Short names are BETTER during fall, which is why eliding names happened in the first place.

[Rabble]

Would this be the wrong time to agree with Anareth? :erm: I mean, look at me; I only have 450 odd posts, and I've been here since last December. You, BeBe, have almost 900, and you've been here since the beginning of the month. Something's not right here...
:eek: She's stealing our posts! :aaah:

:erm: *ducks the :redfruit:*

[Kath]

zei-how is it wrong if i post more than average? as far as i can tell, i contribute to the topics at hand...

[emphasis added by Kath]

In that case, let me tell youotherwise. I suggest you re-read some of your own posts. A large number really don't contribute much at all. That's not to say you havn't come up with some interesting questions/comments... they're just drowned out by the noise of all the rest. It's got to the point where I simply can't be bothered to wade through all the dross anymore.

[Kaoru]

Er.. I'll stay on the sidelines here.. As for the game..

Bronzie's right. During a Pass, it's reasonable to believe that most if not all of the riders would have drastically shorter names (Four letters or three [example: N'ru]). Not to mention, the game starts off towards the end of a Pass--most of the riders you meet are the right age to fly Threadfall. :D

[Dagaz]

The DLG lists some 150 or so rider names. Only something like 45 or so have more than 4 letters.

Okay, 45 out of 150. That's pretty much 1 in 3, correct? And yet none of the Dragonriders in the game have more than four letter honorifics. I'm not entirely sure why everyone was yelling at bb for pointing this out. I noticed it too.

Babies on Pern are named by taking part of each parent's name, and putting them together to form a new name.


That's a common misconception. Babies on pern are not named by taking a part of each parent's name - that is only the custom in the Weyr. As can be inferred by Robinton's reaction to hearing the Benden weyrleader's name in Masterharper - he says something along the lines of 'knowing how names are given in the weyr', he realises F'lon is the Weyrleader's son.

[jjmouse]

Actually, those numbers are not precise. I did not bother to leave out the female riders names.

So the ratio is gong to be off more than that.

It is NOT unrealistic to expect that there be only 4 letter Honorific names in this game. The first three books had more 4 letter names than not.

Anyone who read these books would not be surprised to see such in the game.

Bendenbeauty is posting every random thought in her head. That is what people are commenting on here.

[Dagaz]

Actually, those numbers are not precise. I did not bother to leave out the female riders names.

So the ratio is gong to be off more than that.

Which would be an entirely valid point if we weren't talking about honorifics.

It is NOT unrealistic to expect that there be only 4 letter Honorific names in this game. The first three books had more 4 letter names than not.

Anyone who read these books would not be surprised to see such in the game.

I disagree. It is certainly possible that all the dragonriders mentioned would have four letter honorifics, but it is not likely, and is just another sign that the game designers didn't really have any idea what they were doing.

[Kath]

How many riders are actually named in the game? Statistics are pretty meaningless without it.

Assuming that the ratio of long:short names is roughly 1 in 10, the chance of having just short-name riders drops below 1% when you have 44 riders named.
If the ratio is 1:5, there's a 1% chance of having just short names with 21 or so named riders.

A 1% chance isn't the most likely outcome, but it's hardly implausible.

So - are we dealing with 10 characters? A hundred? What?

[Kath]

The male riders' names that I remember are : D'kor, N'eth, B'rak, V'kai.

Is that the full list of named riders, or just the ones you can remember?

If the former, there's a ~40% chance that 4 randomly selected names would have 4 letters, assuming that 4/5 names are normally that length. That's not implausible in the slightest.

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

And still, this is based of *what we know* of riders names. How many areas have been covered in the books? Parts of the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 6th and 9th Pass, and it still doesn't mention ALL the names of dragonriders in those periods. Despite shorter names being more advantageous anyway, what's to say that there was just a short name 'phase' at one point or another? I really don't see what's so bad about all short names, if they got too long, then they'd have to start eliding already elided names! :roll:

[Mayhem]

D'kor, N'eth, B'rak, V'kai, K'tan, S'lon, V'hul, S'bor, L'tul, T'men, F'ben...

I THINK that is all... Could be wrong like.

These make more sense for Thread fighting dragons to say then summat along the lines of T'suriameren! And yes, I STILL see dammned long names on RP's.
The names are elided for a reason dammnit! Short does NOT bloody matter.

My :2cent:

[Mayhem]

TWD names list...

B'dor......B'irto........B'refli.........F'lessan
B'fol.......B'rant.......G'dened......Gnarish
B'naj......H'ages......K'nebel.......P'llomar
C'gan.....J'ralt........P'ratan........T'gellan
D'nek.....R'mart......S'goral
D'nol.....T'gran.......T'ledon
D'ram
D'wer
F'lar
F'lon
F'nor
F'rad
G'nag
G'sel
K'der
K'net
K'van
L'tol
L'trel
M'rek
N'ton
R'gul
R'mel
R'nor
S'lan
S'lel
T'bor
T'gor
T'kul
T'ran
T'reb
T'ron
T'sel


Gonna tell Anne that 'it's not always realistic'?

I rest my case (and fingers)

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

I agree, Red - it's easier during Fall, but it's not always realistic - some riders have much longer ames - i.e. G'rannat and F'lessan, as well as F'neldril.
*sigh* And why is it that originally longer names can't be cut down to 4 or 5 letters? Honestly, some of Anne's longer names bordered on silliness to me, Like Famanoran (or something like that). But with a whopper of a name like that it STILL wasn't F'manoran, it was a mere F'nor, 4 letters.

G'rannat could just as easily be G'ran; F'lessan - F'less; F'neldril - F'nel/F'dril. I'm sorry, I just don't understand what the big deal is whether the names are long or short :shrug:

[Kath]

Okay - taking the names in TWD as the basis, there's a >1% chance that all the riders named in the game have short names. Less than I'd have expected, but I guess Anne liked a few longer names.

All short names are therefore plausible, but relatively unlikely.

[Dagaz]

The names are elided for a reason dammnit! Short does NOT bloody matter.


But are they?

We know that the tradition of shortening the names originally came from Torene overhearing the dragons, who spoke quickly during threadfall. However, First Fall is the only book (that I can remember, anyway) that makes any reference to this whatsoever. I'd bet that a couple of passes down the line, it's just one more tradition that no one knows the origination of.

If Pern was a real place, and the names were shortened to make them easier to say during threadfall, then longer names would be far less likely. But Pern is not a real place, and Anne has always made a point of including riders with longer names in the books.

The game designers did not include any honorifics longer than four letters. To me, this indicates they didn't know what they were doing. It is just one sign among many. And it annoys me.

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

What does it really matter?? Just because the list (which isn't lengthy to begin with) all happened to be short names that means the designers are totally inept? They're just names! Please tell me, what does it matter if they're 3 letters or 10? Just because Anne had some lengthy ones doesn't mean there HAS to be in every place.

Whether the orginal reason for eliding name is still known to them or not, habit is habit. If the First Pass dragons slurred names (which really weren't that long to begin with) then they'll slur them in the future too. Whether it's F'lessan or R'tyulakamareffalan, they'll get slurred.

[Dagaz]

What does it really matter?? Just because the list (which isn't lengthy to begin with) all happened to be short names that means the designers are totally inept? They're just names! Please tell me, what does it matter if they're 3 letters or 10? Just because Anne had some lengthy ones doesn't mean there HAS to be in every place.

For the third and hopefully final time, it is just one more sign. Would the names alone mean the designers didn't know what they were doing? No. Like I've said before, it's possible that a random sample of ten dragonriders will have no names longer than four letters. It's not likely, however, and when you combine it with things like the size of the dragons and the ridiculous between sequence it all adds up to a quick flick through the DLG.

Whether the orginal reason for eliding name is still known to them or not, habit is habit. If the First Pass dragons slurred names (which really weren't that long to begin with) then they'll slur them in the future too. Whether it's F'lessan or R'tyulakamareffalan, they'll get slurred.

But the dragons don't make the names. The tradition is that the person chooses their own name. If the person doesn't know that the purpose of eliding the name is to make it quicker to say, they won't have that as a reason to make it shorter.

[Aranel]

On the names, I'm thinking it's more along the lines of being easy to say, not so much with the letter number. F'lessan is just as easy and quick to say as F'les. Actually, kind of easier, if you roll it off the tongue, rather like T'gellan. That being said, MOST multi-syllabic names aren't going to be easier to say than bi-syllabic.

I believe I recall something being said in the books to do with the uber long names, like Famanoran, and that being he would have a choice of what to elide his name to when he Impressed. Those choices being F'man, F'nor, F'ran, etc., just in case there was already someone with the same name in the Weyr. Makes sense to me, at any rate.

[jjmouse]

And it is after all, only a game. A child's toy. :roll:


Not like it is life or death.

[Ian]

Yes, it's only a game, & it's not a matter of life or death, but a child's toy? I think not, it's beyond children really & using the phrase is a little insulting to those who play the game, don't you think?

[jjmouse]

:erm: No Ian, not really. _I_ never claimed to be a grown up. I have played this game thru several times.

[Aranel]

*snicker*

Yeah, I was just about to point out that JJ had mentioned playing the game several times to me. ;)

[jjmouse]

*snicker*

Yeah, I was just about to point out that JJ had mentioned playing the game several times to me. ;)




:razz: :razz: :razz: :blush: :blush: :blush:



:laugh:

[Dagaz]

And it is after all, only a game. A child's toy. :roll:


Not like it is life or death.

*almost audible blink*

I would have thought that, as a host here, you would know that it is a forum? At least, that's what the banner at the top of the page seems to indicate. A place to discuss all things Anne McCaffrey. So here we are, having a nice discussion about name-lengths in the game and whether they were realistic or not, and you pop in to say "not like it's life or death"? Really, hadn't noticed, but thanks for pointing it out! :roll:

I don't even want to know what possessed you to call it a child's toy. You may consider yourself a child, but please don't insult everyone else by calling them one too.

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

People are taking all of this WAY too seriously :blink:

[Mayhem]

*almost audible blink*

I would have thought that, as a host here, you would know that it is a forum? At least, that's what the banner at the top of the page seems to indicate. A place to discuss all things Anne McCaffrey. So here we are, having a nice discussion about name-lengths in the game and whether they were realistic or not, and you pop in to say "not like it's life or death"? Really, hadn't noticed, but thanks for pointing it out! :roll:

I don't even want to know what possessed you to call it a child's toy. You may consider yourself a child, but please don't insult everyone else by calling them one too.
:laugh: :rofl2:

I quite enjoy the debate at this place. Always guarenteed to find someone with a differing view to you!

Seems to be though, just as it's getting interesting someone stops it or acts like a spoiled child that has lost the argument. Pity really, as I like to match wits with people now and then!

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

Who knows, it may have been simple coincidance :shrug: After all, I doubt they're gonna sit down and hack out the statistics on how long each name should be, they probably just came up with some honorifics which all happened to round out to 4 letters and didn't give it a second thought that they maybe should have popped a longer one in there. It doesn't seem unrealistic to me even if it was deliberately intended.

[Milo]

People are taking all of this WAY too seriously :blink:
Can I get an amen?

[Shalyn]

Well then, since having only four-letter honorifics annoys some people, and it's not realistic, then I guess I'd better go back through the 18 chapters I have finished on my fan fiction and change some of the names, just so I don't annoy certain people. :roll:

That said, I, personally, find the four-letter honorifics to be more Pernese than the longer ones. Heck, even in Skies of Pern, F'lessan mentions that his son, Selessan, chooses S'lan as his honorific instead of following his father's footsteps and keeping his name long.

Either way, I really think that JJMouse was treated poorly in the beginning of this thread, and my opinion of the people treating her poorly has definitely plummeted. Not that you care about my opinion, of course, but still. Way to over-react.

[Aurelia]

That said, I, personally, find the four-letter honorifics to be more Pernese than the longer ones. Heck, even in Skies of Pern, F'lessan mentions that his son, Selessan, chooses S'lan as his honorific instead of following his father's footsteps and keeping his name long.


F'lessan's son by Faselly of Benden Weyr, Sellessan, does change his name to S'lan after Impressing brown Norenth, but I think he didn't change his name to S'lessan because the second part of his father's name was already that, and it could get confused during Fall.

[Aurelia]

Something that's also interesting about DRAGON names in the game - they reuse some of Anne's names, i.e. Branth, K'tan's bronze, and Nalaya's gold Morath.

[Milo]

I imagine sometime or another a name would get reused. After all, how many "John"s do you know?

[Dagaz]

Well then, since having only four-letter honorifics annoys some people, and it's not realistic, then I guess I'd better go back through the 18 chapters I have finished on my fan fiction and change some of the names, just so I don't annoy certain people. :roll:

Gee, would you? That would be real swell!

The difference is that your fan fiction is a fan fiction, and not an official Pern product. I don't know why it's wrong to want the game to be as close to the books as possible, but that's what's being implied in this thread.

I'm interested in how you think the shorter names are more Pernese than the longer ones. Or, more to the point, exactly what you mean by 'Pernese'. More likely to occur on Pern, if it were a real place? More likely to occur in the books?

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

He has a point. Out of who knows how many dragons throughout 2500 years, is it really that unreasonable that a few would overlap? Especially if they're in a completely different time period. There are thousands to millions of people with the same names on earth, but they're still distinguishable.

I admit that it's probably just a bit of poor referencing research that resulted in those names, just like with Anne and Todd. Yes, they made mistakes like that in the books too, so they can take as much fault in that area as the game makers. But WHERE does it say that every dragon name has to be like a fingerprint? What is the problem with same names?

[Milo]

Hmm... fingerprints. I bet they're like snowflakes, they aren't supposed to ever be the same, but sometimes they do overlap. I could be wrong ( :shrug: ) but I guess that in the many thousand years that humans have been around, the fingerprints might've overlapped somewhere.

And anyway, even if they didn't, they are so much more intricate than names. The name equivilant of a fingerprint would be super long... a dragon for instance:

Supabronqulazaxazabononwewokacootiezeihuppasmellyuckyrabblestinksewwwo lfegardroolisgrossamaranatatatatath.

[Shalyn]

Gee, would you? That would be real swell!

The difference is that your fan fiction is a fan fiction, and not an official Pern product. I don't know why it's wrong to want the game to be as close to the books as possible, but that's what's being implied in this thread.

I'm interested in how you think the shorter names are more Pernese than the longer ones. Or, more to the point, exactly what you mean by 'Pernese'. More likely to occur on Pern, if it were a real place? More likely to occur in the books?

Since the books are Pern, there is no difference.

As for the game being as close to the books as possible, if you go back and read page one of this thread, you'll see where people have listed out how many four-letter honorifics there are vs. how many five-letter plus honorifics there are, which is my basis for saying that four-letter honorifics are more Pernese. There are more four-letter honorifics in the books. The game creators could have just opened the books, looked at different pages, and seen names that were four-letters. Hence the game reflecting that.

The one name that BendenBeauty gave us which was a four-letter, which I agree with her about is "N'eth". Since dragon names end in "-th", rider names probably shouldn't.

Actually, if anyone wanted to stretch their thinking a bit, some of the longer ones could be made into four-letter honorifics by double-eliding them!

R'mart = R'm'rt
B'irto = B'rto (why even bother with the "i"?)
T'gellan = T'g'ln
F'lessan = F'l'sn

In DF, the honorific was given men who were even thinking about becoming a rider (Kylara naming her baby T'kyl or something like that). While a lot of people think this was due to Kylara's arrogance, I truly believe it was because Anne had only just created the world and didn't have any plans on furthering it. When a hue and cry went up to "write more!!!", she started worldbuilding. Hence Lytol's green changing to brown, and honorifics being given to men after they become riders.

No reason for this was ever given to us until DD, when the dragons themselves were shortening names. But really, it makes sense on some of the longer ones that they are still slurred to the point of being run-on consonants.

[Bobbsy]

Frankly, all Pernese debate aside, this is probably just an example of sloppy "take the easy way" programming.

I'm assuming they just decided to make the riders' names a "fixed length string" rather than a "variable length string". Either could work but it simpler to keep all the names the same length.

Bobbsy

[Dagaz]

The game creators could have just opened the books, looked at different pages, and seen names that were four-letters. Hence the game reflecting that.

That's exactly my point. Had they done more than just flick open the books, they would have realised that not all Dragonrider names have just four letters.

No reason for this was ever given to us until DD, when the dragons themselves were shortening names. But really, it makes sense on some of the longer ones that they are still slurred to the point of being run-on consonants.

I made a point in an earlier post that although the reason the names were elided in the first place is told in First Fall, that's the only book it's mentioned in. Now, it's possible that the Dragonriders are still aware that this is the reason why the shorten the names, but is it likely? So much more important stuff was forgotten that I wouldn't be surprised if this was just one more tradition by the start of the second pass. So, yes, the dragons probably do shorten the names still, but if the riders don't know that they don't have a reason to make their names shorter. Which is why we get names like F'lessan.

[Shalyn]

That's exactly my point. Had they done more than just flick open the books, they would have realised that not all Dragonrider names have just four letters.

Yes, this is true. Actually, if they had bothered to look in the back of any of the books they would have seen that.

However, I think that Bobbsy's theory is more plausible. That it was easier to create a fixed length string instead of a variable length string, programatically speaking.


I made a point in an earlier post that although the reason the names were elided in the first place is told in First Fall, that's the only book it's mentioned in. Now, it's possible that the Dragonriders are still aware that this is the reason why the shorten the names, but is it likely? So much more important stuff was forgotten that I wouldn't be surprised if this was just one more tradition by the start of the second pass. So, yes, the dragons probably do shorten the names still, but if the riders don't know that they don't have a reason to make their names shorter. Which is why we get names like F'lessan.

I think it would make more sense for the dragon to 'rename' their rider, instead of a rider choosing their honorific. After all, it's the dragon who has to talk to their rider! But, as you are alluding to, in DF Kylara immediately "honorific's" her son's name (an Anne-consistency in writing), and in DQ, Lessa is worried about what they are going to call Jaxom. So it sounds like a little bit of both - the first dragons slurred the names, Torene mentions it to several people, and someone pounces on what seems to be A Good Idea in segragating dragonriders from non-riders.

But I still think that four-letter honorifics are going to be way more common than longer honorifics.