What Parents "Owe" their children/What Children "Owe" their parents

[Priscilla]

I've been thinking about this a LOT lately. My husband and I have always felt that it was our responsibility and our pleasure to support our kids, help them with homework questions, encourage them to take steps on their own in life (getting drivers' license, part time jobs, getting into college). I consider we are the "cheerleaders", and also the backup in case they have a big problem, until they graduate from college and can get a permanent job and be on their own. It seems like some families (our daughter's boyfriends' for example) don't work that way. They give the boys no support, don't encourage them, and instead, do things like borrow their cars and have accidents with them so that they are undriveable! It seems that in some families the parents have the feeling that the kids "OWE" them! There is no way that I would ask my kids to pay me back all the money we've spent on them over the years, or make them feel guilty for it! At the same time, they have provided us with so much joy that we are more than compensated! Of course they aren't perfect, but neither are we. It's been a learning experience being a parent just as much as it's been their "job" to grow up and become adults! So, what do the rest of you think of this, since many of you are in the same sort of age range as my kids - 19 and 22?!

[Mayhem]

*Sneaks in with a two sided opinion*

From the side of what do I owe my kids... I owe them safety, food, clothes, warmth and love. I owe them respect, or how can I ever gain that from them. I owe them a shoulder to cry on or a hand to hold, an arm to grab in excitement and a sympathetic hug.

They one me only two things. Respect and Love. If they owed me anything else, like money... Well, the amount I have spent... They'd be paying off a LOT by the time they hit 18.

On the side of a child... You want another daughter Cilla? I am made to feel guilty for every penny (Few as that was) spent on me as a child. I am made to feel I was a burden, even though the £300 a month maintinence for me sent by my father was spent on drink and gambling by my mother. The other day she brought up a pair of shoes I got when I was 15. First pair I had ever had new, not from a second hand shop. They cost £30. My sister's cost £120 and mum was willing to spend over £180 on the ones Jenny wanted. I however was the financial burden :shake:
I vowed never to treat my children like that, and I fully intend to stick by that.
*Sneaks back out again*

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

I don't think it's right that a child should be expected to finacially repay everything that was spent on them though upbringing. If I were a parent, I would NEVER expect to be paid back for everything, I think it's expected of a parent to provide for their child selflessly (within limits). After all, it is the PARENT that decides to have children, the kids never asked to be brought into the world, so it should be a given that a parent should provide basic necessities without expecting any material value in return. However, once they get older, and if they start borrowing money now and then, I'd appreciate the kindness to be repaid, but by no means the total sum of what was expended on them throughout their life, I see that as extreme and irrational.

But a parent ALWAYS should recieve respect and love, as Plat said. But even if the kid really does hate their guts, they should still expect respect at the very least. After everything that a perent provides for their child, they have earned the right to demand respect.

But it works both ways, a parent should always owe their child respect too. A kid learns by example, if they see that they are treated well and respected, then they will be more inclined to offer it in return. If a kid is extremely unruly or bad manners though, they certainly should be denied priveleges and other luxeries, but they should still have basic human respect.

[Jax]

To me it seems there has been a trend where a lot more children these days demand a lot more from their parents because the child thinks they have the right. That is just plain wrong! :shake:
Too many children are spoiled and they grow up thinking that's how life is, but the parents have done it to themselves, they're too soft, and want to be the kid's friend, rather than parent.
I don't know how good a mother I will be until I get there, but I will always keep that in mind.

With my family we are very sharing, we joke about a lot of things, like if I've borrowed $20 and Dad says 'where's my money' I come back with 'what?? I worked in your shop for 4 years and didn't see a cent' and then he goes into 'well what about all the money I've spent on you in your entire life, I think you owe me some ;) ' - it's all in good fun. There's no way either of us every expect to be 'recompensed' though I'd definitely pay back the $20 :laugh:

You are right Cilla, you have a child, they are your responsibility, and your joy. They don't owe you because you made them and clothed them and fed them and gave them a few luxuries.

Too many people in the world don't use their common sense, they don't think right. Instead, they use their selfish sense and that why people treat other people, including their children like dirt.

[Faren]

My :2cent: I feel that I OWE my kids food, clothing, shelter, and lots of love and encouragement. What I sacrifice to give them is the best education possible so that they will be able to fend for themselves one day. I don't owe that to them, but it's something I want them to have.

What they owe me is respect and love, and some help around the house. I also tell them that their "job" at this point in time is to work hard in school and do the best they can.

[C_ris]

Parents 'owe' their children love, respect, and help/ Financial support should be available if necessary, once they have reached an age when they can earn it for themselves. But parents also owe their children is training for Life in the Real World. Financial handouts should be limited, because children need to learn the TRUE value of money - and that it takes effort and work to get it. Parents also have a responsibility towards their kids to provide for them financially until they are in a position to earn for themselves. Otherwise, why have kids?

Children, however, OWE their parents love and respect. And when their parents become old, they owe them help, in whatever ways necessary, to help them live out their 'twilight years' in comfort and security. Any parent who kids their kids out of home as soon as they turn 16 or 18 do not, however, deserve this.

[Bane]

I don't have kids, but they won't owe me anything. I will bring them into the world with joy and give them what they need. I will not necesarrily give them what they want, though what's to keep me from giving thm the occassional present? :)

I grew up where the children had to help around the house in order for the general well being of the family to stay at a normal level. My kids will grow up the same way. I will not expect them to do everything like my own personal slaves (:devil:), but I don't want them to be lazy either.

As for owing the parents, I owe my parents a lot. I owe them the love they deserve for bringing me into the world and helping me get somewhat of a normal education, and for encouraging me to go on. I also owe them for when they backed off and realized that maybe a higher education just wasn't for me. I owe them the respect of what they did to raise me and my two little brothers. And for continuing in being there for me. I also owe my mom some money, yes, because I borrowed it when I was in financial straits.

I do not think I should have to repay them for what they spent on me throughout my entire life. That's ridiculous. If I owed them that, I would never repay it. I would still be paying it into some sort of fund long after they died. I may think about paying them back by raising their future grandchildren the same way they raised me. Only hopefully, my kids' father will be there more than mine was.

[spellwight]

I owe my children respect, honesty, discipline, love, room and board, and all the necessities in life. I don't owe them luxuries. When they got TVs or cell phones, or video games they were special gifts, not owed to them.

I provided my children glasses, if they want contacts they pay for them.
I provided children hygiene products; if they wanted special brands they paid for them.
I don't provide make-up.
I have paid for my daughter's hair coloring, but only as a special gift.

Even as adults (of which two are now) if they need money for food or a necessary bill, I'll help out when I can. But I refuse to pay for extras like cell phone bills, or court fines they've earned, or concert tickets, etc.

What do they owe me? Respect, honesty, physical help when we need it around the house, pay back "borrowed" money, and a phone call every few days at least.

At the moment (knock on wood) I have good relationships with all my children.

[Lady Arwyn]

I figure what you do and give to your kids is repayment for what you get from your parents. It works out even in the end. Of course for those folks who had rotten parents that do NOT provide the essentials (love, respect, decent care, etc) get the short end of the stick, but by raising their children right they are repaid by the love and respect that they get from *their* children and grandchildren, and with the knowledge that they broke the nasty chain that tends to pass bad parenting from one generation to the next.

[Keita]

I agree with Debbie on this one. Raising kids to be spoiled, to EXPECT the luxuries is a VERY bad idea. I was raised that way, so I know how bad it can get when you have to do without. What I'd do if I ever have kids is provide the necessities and a reasonable allowance so they can learn to work with money and to save for what they REALLY want. Special gifts excluded of course. They should have security, love and guidance without being smothered or the guidance being shoved down their throats. And without guilt trips.

As for what kids owe parents, love and respect, like Crispy and Debbie said.

[Milo]

One of most important things that parents OWE their children is the best education that they can provide. Whether the kid likes it or not.

[leahiniowa]

According to the Torah, we are supposed to support our children up to a certain age, teach them Torah, teach them a trade, and teach them how to swim. Those are the basics.

I also don't hold by giving your children luxuries. #1 bought herself a lemon of a car (we didn't know it was a lemon at the time). A friend of hers has a car, brand new toyota or honda, bought by her parents. I am proud that #1 is basically supporting herself, and am working on #2 and 3 to support their clothing/makeup expenditures. (Except for wedding gowns - I mean the types of clothes the non-brides wear to our weddings, they are usually fancy and worn more than once and can be handed down.)

The only thing I consider "pay back time" is when one person in the family is helpless and needs assistance. And I don't care which member of the family is giving or receiving, no matter what I consider it "pay back time." E.g., when we bring my mother here for a visit and buy her all these presents - pay back time. And that's more for the diapers changed and the sleepless nights, etc., than the money. Or if I am throwing up and the kids have to make dinner, then I tell them it's payback time. Or if one of the older kids, who is the "mentor" to a younger kid (I have a system in place) is sick (like when #1 had her jaw surgery), #4 her, the one she mentors, had the main job of caring for her - payback time.

[spellwight]

It specifically says teach them to swim? That's just too funny!

The only thing I consider "pay back time" is when one person in the family is helpless and needs assistance. And I don't care which member of the family is giving or receiving, no matter what I consider it "pay back time."

We call that the price of being a family. :) Extra chores when company is coming, help with major projects around the house, helping a family member when they need it, all part of the price of having a family. What's the alternative? I hate seeing families where the Mom does all the cleaning and cooking, even for special events, and the kids are sitting around like slugs or making things worse.

The price of being part of a family is sometimes it ain't fair and you have to chip in more. And it does all equal out in the long run.

[Milo]

I agree, we shouldn't be showered with luxury. Even if my parents COULD afford to do so, I wouldn't want it.

[Aurelia]

I think parents should give their kids the necessities - not necessarily all Spartan, but I agree they shouldn't splurge too much on them, or else they'll become a Paris Hilton-ite. (It's become a movement).

Parents should provide basics, too - food, clothes, shelter, love, support......material, spiritual, emotional, and physical things.

[leahiniowa]

Debs, I agree totally about helping out being prt of the price of being in a family. Sometimes when my kids kvetch about helping out, I just say, "You're a member of the family."

[Staerwyen]

I dont think my mom owes me anything anymore. Im 18 years old and a freshman in college I take care of everything myself and if for some reason my mom pays a bill or something for me I pay her back. Thats just the way I like things.

[Sophia Caligo]

My mom is my only PARENT. My "father" just mooched off of mom for about 15-16 years while giving her two daughters.

Mom never expected me to get a job while I was in highschool (by this time she devorced the Druggie Daddy) because I watched over my younger sister and took advanced classes in hopes that I could cancel out a year of college. It didn't work that way, but she still appreciated that my schoolwork came first.

We started walking to school and she worried, so she got me a cell phone to call her every morning to tell her we made it to school. I didn't (and still don't) use that cell for anything but emergencies, or to call out of my room to tell mom to call me, 'cause my dorm phone is screwed up.

Now that I'm in college, I have a job and pay for car insurance (I didn't get a car til age 18 and I received the car before I got my permit. It was from the money Mom had saved for me since I was born. Its a 92... and works when it wants to) and my books (which can run up to 500-600 dollars). All of my student loans are not due until after college is done.

Its a silent agreement that I'll live at home (free of rent while still in college) until I can find a decent appartment and get my feet underneith me.

I respect, love, and help out my mother whenever I can. Although she still refuses to let me slap her husband... (Mom has bad taste in men.) :banghead:

My Druggy Daddy? He's currently in jail, is about 5-6 months behind on his child support for my sister. Cut me off from any financial help from him the week I graduated high school (Nope, no help from him to go to college) and he wonders why we don't visit him... :santaroll


Parents owe their children: Safe, secure, encouraging enviroments.

Children owe their parents: To try to become decent, self sufficient adults.

My paternal family doesn't get that... *sighs*

ANYWAY those are my thoughts. Stingy parents get nothing. *nods*

[jinnjinn]

To me it seems there has been a trend where a lot more children these days demand a lot more from their parents because the child thinks they have the right. That is just plain wrong! :shake:
Too many children are spoiled and they grow up thinking that's how life is, but the parents have done it to themselves, they're too soft, and want to be the kid's friend, rather than parent.
I don't know how good a mother I will be until I get there, but I will always keep that in mind.

That is very true. My eldest nephew is spoiled to the bone because my brother and sister-in-law wanted to give him everything that we didnt have when we were young (toys, food you name it). Now he swears at his mum and walks all over her. Makes me want to bring back the cleaning out the mouth with soap treatment.

Though I am a patient person. when he's 16 and comes over to crash at my place he will be at my mercy of having cheap brand food and plently of veggies.


With my family we are very sharing, we joke about a lot of things, like if I've borrowed $20 and Dad says 'where's my money' I come back with 'what?? I worked in your shop for 4 years and didn't see a cent' and then he goes into 'well what about all the money I've spent on you in your entire life, I think you owe me some ;) ' - it's all in good fun. There's no way either of us every expect to be 'recompensed' though I'd definitely pay back the $20 :laugh:


My parents do that except when it's a large loan like when i brought tickets to america they paid them and I slowly paid back. I know that if i am in need of money in an emergancy that I can get some money off of them (mostly for food or a bill).

From a child's point of view with my old folks...

The big issue with my parents are that if you want respect in our family, you must either have a full time job or produced children. All 4 of my bros have jobs and/or children. Thus they are told every day how proud my parents are of them (boy do I long to hear those words one day :sad: )

I am currently being pressured into doing courses I dont want to do because there might be less a chance to find work in my desired learning. I dont know how many times I was told not to do AUSLAN because they didnt think I could find work even though where I live has a large deaf and mute community.

It's already a downer to have your own parents telling teachers that their little girl is stupid and slow at learning. (yes I am dyslexic). My flatmate didnt believe me untill my mum desided to have a little talk with her to see if i was getting high marks. 2 destinctions, 10 credits and whole lot of passes still didnt earn me an "i'm proud of you" from them yet (they were too concened about the 3 fails i got).

sorry... that's my little rant ~~;


You are right Cilla, you have a child, they are your responsibility, and your joy. They don't owe you because you made them and clothed them and fed them and gave them a few luxuries.

Too many people in the world don't use their common sense, they don't think right. Instead, they use their selfish sense and that why people treat other people, including their children like dirt.

Right on! I love my parents very much, and I try to make them proud so that I can make up for all the things they have done for me, even if we do have rough spots.

[Jax]

:hugs: Jinn

[Milo]

I mooch off my parents for gas money. :blush:

I use 99% of it to drive to school though. :roll:

[Madrigal]

My parents have had to spend a lot of money on me--the usual food, etc. but also a lot of medical stuff and education. Usually they don't mention it, but when they're mad enough, they'll go for the guilt trip. I'm honestly not sure what more I can do. Sure, Mom's stayed with me in the hospital when I was sick... but I've taken her to the ER at 2 in the morning and slept in the hospital overnight after she had surgery before, too. Doesn't much matter to her.

I figure when I get out of college, I'll minimize contact with them within the bounds of being polite. When they're old enough to need care, fine--I'll provide it. It's fair.

[Milo]

Are they paying for your college?

Mine won't be. The reason is twofold. One, they simply can't. Two, we (parents, myself) don't think they should.

If they can help, that will be great. However, I'm getting pretty good scholarships where I'm probably going to go, so it may not really become an issue.

[C_ris]

My parents are paying for me, and for my MA if I do it. Mainly because they are expected to by our government, and I couldn't go otherwise!

[leahiniowa]

My parents are paying for me, and for my MA if I do it. Mainly because they are expected to by our government, and I couldn't go otherwise!

Lucky you. My parents didn't pay for my grad school, although they did for my brother (who dropped out). I might not have dropped out if they'd paid for it, but doing the PhD program with a fellowship (teaching composition to Freshman) and another part time job was just too much.

[I LOVE Dashboard]

My parents are paying for my college but they say they won't ppay for law school. Oh well, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

[Master Harper Andrea]

You know, I'm kinda old to post in this forum, but I'm gonna anyway. I have a mother that will sacrifice so much for me. I love her so much...and she won't let me do much for her. She is still "young" and active, and I am willing to take her on when she needs me to care for her. That is my responsibility. And I have no living siblings...but I would have wanted to do it anyway. She has been there for me through financial hardship and my round of sickness last year. I would do ANYTHING I could for her.

Now my father...absentee. He thought that $75 per month was enough while I was growing up. Not even a letter or card. Oh well...he thought that I should contact him first. He was the adult though. <sigh> I still would take the high road and go if he really needed me, but it's a lot harder now.

So I owe (at least my mother) to be the best adult and human being I can. I don't want to cause her any more worry or pain than she has already experienced in her life. I want to help her in her old age. And she doesn't owe me one damn thing. She freely gives, though. And I am fortunate to have her. I dread the day I lose her.

Just my humble opinion.

[Zanderuff]

My mom helps me, I respect her. Same with my father. And what they get back from all that they've given me is (not yet, but eventually...) grandchildren to spoil. What goes around, comes around for everyone, right??

And though I use my mom for advise alot, she's decided that I've reached an age in which I can help her make decisions as well. My dad is a little different, he gives me much more freedom and doesn't treat so much like his kid, but then again, he was never there through my childhood to watch me grow up, so why would he treat me like his kid? I think that's why my mom babies me a little bit more. Basically, they do everything for me, and just ask that I help out around the house with things like dinner, cleaning,driving my little brother around or running errands, etc. Well, whenever I'm home they ask me to do that...As far as the car things is concerned, my mom bought me my first one, and I had it for 2 years before going to college, where freshmen weren't allowed vehicles. It was an old car, and while I was gone my stepdad ran it til it died, so they sold it, and since they had paid for it originally, I didn't get the money for a new car. So my dad bought me a new truck (well, not 'new', but new to me...) and put it in my name. I sold it and have a different one, now. So, while I was living under their roof, they expected as much from me as they gave to me, and I have always accepted it. It doesn't seem like a bad system to me. And now that I'm in college they don't give me so much anymore, I provide for myself except for them paying for my tuition. So, I'm not expected to give back as much. They just ask that I visit every once in a while, and when I visit, help out around the house. Again, seems like a fair deal to me...


Well, that's what I expect a parent/child relationship to be like, anyway. Expectations from either party will change as the child gets older, and adjustments must be made. But in the end, it is the parent's job to support the child. Plus, wont the child have to take care of the parent someday, too???

[Mary]

This is a really interesting topic Priscilla.

My parents paid for us and supported us through our full time education which included college. Because they had three of us in college at one time, they paid for our tution and transport and essentials (books, etc) but nothing else. I went through 4 years of college with no spending money because it was at a time when no part time jobs could be had. At the time it wasn't too bad but looking back at it, it might have been nice to be able to socialise a little while I was in college like many of my classmates. But I didn't have money for clothes, makeup or entertainment and I wasn't going to ask my parents for it since they were putting three of us through college at the time.

When I finished college they gave me a loan to buy a car so that I could drive to work, which I paid back and since then I got some cash when I got married and some more last year when we did a house extension. I didn't expect or ask for those two cash gifts but I was very grateful each time.

There seems to be a trend here in Ireland were adult children still expect a lot of support from their aging parents in terms of free room and board, cash gifts, etc etc. Young adults do not seem to be able to save their money until they can afford something but want it now. Whether it is a mobile phone, holiday, night out. Then they look to their parents to help pay their rent at the end of the month.

We have two small girls and we will probably be supporting them financially well into their mid twenties but there will come a point where we will say no more. You are an adult and on your own financially now. I really cannot see myself with an adult child with a job living in my house who is not contributing to the house running costs. We are not going to give them a new car for their 18th or 21st birthdays like I have seen several times recently. However we are going to bring them up as best we can and give them the best education we can so that by the time they finish college (if they want to go) they will be independent well brought up adults.

[C_ris]

My parents just gave me £1000 for my birthday! :eek: :faint:

[Zanderuff]

My parents just gave me £1000 for my birthday! :eek: :faint:


sorry, I'm an ignorant american :blush: but, could you possibly tell me how much that is in american dollars? I don't know the exchange rates in any country except for Canada...

[C_ris]

sorry, I'm an ignorant american :blush: but, could you possibly tell me how much that is in american dollars? I don't know the exchange rates in any country except for Canada...

Something around $1800-2000.

[Zanderuff]

Something around $1800-2000.


:eek2: :eek2:

wow...wish my parents were that nice. Mind you, they do pay my tuition, so I guess that like, $30,00 a year.......

[leahiniowa]

In Judaism, we have certain roles clearly defined. Parents are obligated to support their children until they get old enough to support themselves (which is more of a cultural expectation than anything else - nowadays I guess you'd say until 18-21), provide them with a Torah education, train them in a trade of some sort, and teach them how to swim.

Children are not allowed to say their parents first name, sit in their chair, cause them any type of bodily harm (it's better even for children not to remove a splinter from their parent if anyone else can do it, so the child does not cause the parent bloodshed), or insult them.

Those are minimum requirements. It's best if everyone does as much as they can and is good for the child (without doing too much for the child, but that's my own opinion). But since sometimes parent/child relationships can have serious problems, those are the minimal requirements, which specify nothing about spending holidays at parents' houses or buying cars for kids. So if you have a strained relationship, you can still have a Torah relationship and know you met your familial obligations.

I'm sort of glad that having so many children relieves me of any guilt I might feel about not buying each of my kids new cars at the age of 16, etc. I honestly think it's better that young people learn how to care for themselves as early as they are able to do so. I hope to help my children some when they first get married, and our rental house is also earmarked to be the "newlywed" house when our kids get old enough to get married (some people have a house where each kid lives in after marriage until the next one gets married, providing the kid wants the house, and usually they do, b/c it's free rent and landlords who have a vested interest in maintaining the property).

[C_ris]

:eek2: :eek2:

wow...wish my parents were that nice. Mind you, they do pay my tuition, so I guess that like, $30,00 a year.......
That was for my 21st birthday though ;)

[Jax]

My parents just gave me £1000 for my birthday! :eek: :faint:
:woohoo: Congrats!! :bouncy: :hugs:

[Priscilla]

This question is more a "what parents owe their children" sort of thing, but I think we've pretty well covered the original topic, so a bit of a slide into something else won't hurt us! ;)

I work in a daycare. Most of the 15 years I've done so I have not been at places that take infants. Where I now work we are licensed to have I believe 8 little ones starting as young as 6 weeks! I am very aware, before we even start, that there are cases where people "must" have their children in full time daycare in order to survive. However. The part of the country I live in is very affluent. We have several famillies where one parent does not work at all and yet the child is in daycare from 9 am to 5:30 every day! I have heard all the excuses about "it is good for the child's socialization skills" and I'm sorry but I don't buy that. They can get all that from the 3 hours a day nursery school program and then go home and spend time with one of the people who should be spending the majority of their young years with them. My opinion from what I see around here is that people do not want to give up anything when they have children, combined with the fact that they would rather spend time around other adults in "stimulating" conversation than with little kids which, having raised two of my own, can make your brain feel like it's jello after a few years of "not so much" adult contact. ;)

Here's my question. If you plan to have children of your own someday which would you choose?

a. one parent stay home with the kids most of the time (either as a stay at home parent or work opposite shifts)
b. have the kids babysat by a relative or friend in a home setting, still making that a minimum arrangement
c. use a large child care facility full time

I'm sorry if my choices seem biased, and you're welcome to pick apart my reasoning. Before you start, please remember that I have said that there are certainly circumstances where families must have their children in full time daycare to survive. I am concerned that we are becoming a nation that puts our adult desires first and not our children, and this is going to very much backfire on us in the future. :sad:

[leahiniowa]

'Cilla, those are good questions. For some reason, having a grandmother take care of the kids (if she can, etc.) seems to me just about as good as having a parent take care of the kids. My grandmother watched me when I was a small child and my mother had to work, and I was either in my own home or in hers, and I felt very comfortable with the arrangement.

[granath]

My mother was at home until I was 8 and my sister 5. We did go to some sort of nursery school for about 4 or 5 hours a day, 5 days a week, I from the age of 5, my sister from when she turned 3. I think that was the best of both worlds, my mother had some time on her own, time to run errands etc, which could be a bother with two young kids in tow, especially without a car. But we always had Mom come pick us up and more time with her than most kids do. OTOH we only saw dad during the weekends, as he was working in a different town.

I doubt I'll be able to afford to stay at home for that long with my kids, if I ever have any, although luckily we have 11 months of paid (60% of salary) maternity leave, so very few people put their kids in daycare before the age of 4 months, which is the minimum amount of leave you have to take.

[Mary]

Another interesting question Priscilla.

Steve Biddulph has recently brought out a book which describes two type of parents who use childcare. Slammers and sliders. Slammers put their kids into full time childcare (nurserys) from as young as possible, 5 days per week, 10 hours per day, until they go to school. Sliders try to minimise their use of nursery by working part time, taking as much maternity and parental leave as possible, dropping them in late and picking them up early. But one of the main points of his book is "placing children younger than three in nurseries risks damaging their development" especially for the slammers.

As 'cilla knows I have two kids who are in a creche. I started them when they were 6/7 months old and they are now 6 & 4. The 6 yr old goes after school. I really consider myself a slider. My husband works shift work and is often at home during the week and the kids are home with him. They go on average 3 days per week to the creche. Some weeks it is only 1 or 2 days, other weeks it can be 5 days.

The creche setting suits us as it is reliable, safe, clean, hours that suit us and professional. The kids are not plonked in front of a TV all day. It is also very expensive, way more than we pay in morgage. If one of the minders is having an off day someone is there to take up the slack. If one of the minders is ill, my children still get cared for by others. The disavantages are the kids do not get outside a lot. They have an outdoor play area and they go out every day, but they are never out all day. If they are any way sick the creche will not take them. There is no one-to-one care like you would get in a home setting.

We did not get a granny to mind them because we feel it is not right for an older granny to mind small babies. It is a lot of work and can be difficult. We did not pay someone in the black econmy to mind them either as most of our friends have found a childminder in their own homes or not is very unreliable. I have heard so many stories of the minder saying on a Friday evening, thanks but I am not coming back on Monday.

Many countries value a parent as the primary caregiver for a child and enact laws so that the parent can spend as much time as possible with the child when they are very young.

In Ireland we now have 22 paid weeks maternity leave plus an additional 12 weeks unpaid leave. This is better than what I had 4 years ago. In another 12 months this will increase to 26 weeks paid and 16 weeks unpaid. This means that babies can now be 8 months before a mum has to go back to work. Then we are entitled to 14 weeks unpaid parental leave for each parent up until the time the child is 5. I know other european countries have even better maternity entitlements.

[Priscilla]

You definitely sound like your definition of "slider" Mary, and good for you! I know it isn't always possible, but I do think really young children should be with a parent as much as possible. Unfortunately, we have a LOT of slammer parents where I work, including some who put their infants in daycare 5 days a week, full time, and do not work themselves! I need to hunt up that book you mention on Amazon!

[leahiniowa]

I circumvented the whole problem by doing daycare myself as a job, in the home. It was sad to see parents who'd leave their kids with me for 12 hours and then drop them off by relatives for evenings and weekends.

[Milo]

What is a creche?

I am familiar with the term only in the nativity sense.

[leahiniowa]

'Milo, guess you haven't read Freedom then. It's Daycare.

[GR'ass]

My parents and I have an understanding. At the moment, I am kind of without anywhere to live, and didn't want to move back home (issues. those who know, know. don't give me a hard time about it) Yes, mums place is still home, and probably will be forever. Anyway, my parents decided that since I was having trouble catching up financially (ex had a drinking/gambling/anger problem) if I did housework and yardwork, I could stay and not feel guilty.
Hopefully after tomorrow I will have my own place, and breathe again. Yes I love both my parents, I just can't live with them.
According to our government though, I am not classed as financially independant, except with excepting circumstances(me) until you are 25. Their reasoning is that it is so when our parents get old, we can look after them.
My only response was that it would work if we didn't kill each other first.

[GR'ass]

As to what parents owe. .. . . parents owe their children unconditional love, support in whatever they choose in life, gentle discipline when they do wrong and a safe refuge when life goes to pieces.
My parents, for all their faults, have given me all that. In return, I give them my love, and in a perfect world, I would give them my trust.