Divorce on Pern?

[TamTam]

This thought occurred to me and I can't let it go: is there divorce on Pern? If so, how would a person go about it? Does it have to be over something really bad (abuse, adultery, etc.) or can you just split 'cause you don't feel like being married today?

The characters I've seen in the novels seem to be either single, married, or widowed, not a divorced one in the lot! I didn't see anything about this in the DLG, but maybe I wasn't looking in the right places. Any thoughts?

[C_ris]

To me it seems thst Divoce does not happen because many seem to take lovers (such as Lord Tolocamp) or do not gat married (like dragonriders) and so cannot get divorced.... but i'm not sure...

[AnnMarie]

I agree with C_ris on this one (Hide C_ris! It's happening again!)

The way Pern society is set up, divorce doesn't seem to be an option. Polygamy, yes (Fax), but not divorce.

Then again, maybe it's just one of those things(and there are many) we just don't see, since it isn't central to any of the stories.

[Greenrider Tresa]

I don't know about never, but maybe less frequently. Lord Holders do seem to be expected to have lovers, so if the ladies were unhappy I don't see why they couldn't do the same.
Could see someone wanting out of an abusive situation though, if they weren't too broken or scared to try, or convinced that they deserve it.
And yes, I do know a thing or two about domestic violence.

It would probably be mentioned if it was important to a story line.



Tresa

[selket]

probably if a lady holder was being abused, her male family would step in. or maybe a harper would write a "shaming" song

[Hans]

Uhm... I think the taking mistressess was done mostly by the Lords Holder :) and the dragonriders of course, but theirs was another "culture" than the Holder's.

Divorce in the Terran way? I don't know but don't think so. Leaving your spouse? Yes, that will have been done but, as you said, I suspect only in dire circumstances; Pern is that kind of society where you expect people not to leave each other too easily, esepcially not if children are involved.

However that only goes for later Passess. Society as a whole was vastly different in colonist times... So it all depends.

[fuzzypaws]

Well, I must say that in all the books I have read Divorce does not come into play at all. Leave them, kill them, whatever, just no divorce.

[granath]

Yes, in colonist times I seem to remember short-term contracts, with provision for the upkeep of the resulting children. Maybe I'm getting mixed up with some other book, though, as it's about 2 years since I last read Dragonsdawn. :blush: In the later passes there wasn't any divorce that I know of.

Marriage on Pern is mainly a contract forming alliances with other Lords, and possibly something to do with land. There seems to be no limit to how many wives a Lord can have, although most of them seem to stick with just one or two. The main reason for Lords to have more than one wife is so that he can have as many heirs as possible to choose a successor from, although half-bloods are perfectly valid candidates. This means that when there is no reliable contraception available except to dragonriders, as well as strong cultural taboos against using any even if they existed, the one thing Lords would care about is making sure that their wives don't stray and get pregnant by someone else. So I don't think lovers among ladies would be condoned.

[BeckyMildan]

I have to agree that for most of Pern's history divorce would not be an option. By the beginning of the second pass women were loosing their rights and equality. For the most part Pern was a feudal type culture. Women were property and the Lord Holders more like feudal kings. High ranking women who weren't happy with their spouse made the best of it. Considering the size of the major holds they didn't have to see a lot of each other. How well she was treated most likely had a lot to do with the Lord's character and her family's power and interest. The lower classes would have less options. If things were bad enough she might be able to return to her family or she might just have to endure. Human nature being the same everywhere a few probably ran off with other men or arranged for their own widowhood. :devil:

[Feena_bronze_rider]

or do not gat married (like dragonriders) and so cannot get divorced.... but i'm not sure...
I never thought about it like that. I didn't notice that F'lon never espoused Either of his kids mothers.

[Hans]

As far as I know, feena, there are no dragonrider marriages recorded at all (in the books) :)

[Feena_bronze_rider]

Well there goes my Espousal to T'gellan...

[fuzzypaws]

I had dibs on Jaxom myself.

[Feena_bronze_rider]

Ah! But Meir wanted the white dragon... I thought that would be the only way...

[BeckyMildan]

As far as I know, feena, there are no dragonrider marriages recorded at all (in the books) :)
Sean and Sorka are the only ones I can think of and they got married before the dragons hatched.

[Feena_bronze_rider]

Oh....

[Hans]

Sean and Sorka are the only ones I can think of and they got married before the dragons hatched.
:) true, but I wasn't exactly thinking of colonist times when I wrote my remark. True nonetheless, Becky.

BTW, makes me thinking....
does anybody know if there are any fandom clubs writing in the (pre) First Pass?

[granath]

As far as I know, feena, there are no dragonrider marriages recorded at all (in the books) :)

Dragonriders are essentially "married" to their dragons, getting the emotional support humans would in an ideal marriage. During mating flights they sleep with whoever is riding the other dragon participating in the flight, and between flights it's their business. So, no wedding ceremonies for dragonriders, although there are obviously strong human relationships among dragonriders too, such as Lessa and F'lar, T'gellan and Mirrim, F'lessan and Tai. Brekke and F'nor don't really count as she lost her dragon and obviously all her limited emotional resources are for his benefit.

[Purpura]

Taking care of the dragons cut into the permanent relationships in the early settling of Pern's weyrs but for Sean and Sorka since they wed due to her being pregnant by him.
I'm guessing the descendants of the Dragonriders chose not to be married since their dragons care came first, and the queenriders could temporarily choose the man they want to lead their weyrs with the Leadership flights... Remember even if the queenrider disliked the Weyrleader her dragon chose with the bronze she was caught by (Like Moreta, and Sh'gall) the next Flight could replace the Weyrleader if another bronze caught the Queen that the queenrider liked the rider more the next time the Queen rose to Fly...

[fuzzypaws]

So in essence if you didn't like your current mate wait till the next flight or knock him off the back of your dragon between

[Kenzie's Mom]

Well there goes my Espousal to T'gellan...

I was kinda hoping to catch N'ton's eye myself... :married:
Oh well... foiled again.... :banghead:

[Weyrwoman Kalina]

Hmmm... I would say it probably doesn't really exist.

Like someone said before, some weren't even married so they could just leave... and I don't think it was ever really thought of that much- then again... good question though!

[granath]

Dragonriders don't marry in the first place, so they don't get divorced either. F'lar and Lessa are probably about as close as dragonriders get to being married.

[Hans]

Granath mentioning Dragonsdawn (and short term contracts) set me thinking and I checked the book.

In Dragonsdawn we indeed encounter the term "divorce" in the sense of marital separation. It concerns Sabra Stein, Zi Ongola's wife, who "threatens to divorce him if he does anything before he gets medical clearance" (after he got wacked over the head by April). Said in jest but it does seem to mean that at least in early Pernese times divorce was still a known action in concern to a seperation of two legally attached partners.

[Mausey]

I don't know if this will muddy the waters even more, but in one of the books when they're talking about the oldtimers, they say something about hold girls being kidnapped and being forced to leave husbands and even children. Now, if the wife is gone, wouldn't there have to be a way to dissolve the union so the man could remarry? What if it's a man taken to provide a strong back, his wife can't just sit about waiting for him to return. I know there's no mention of men being kidnapped, but it's possible. Women can't do all the drudge work in a weyr.

[Emmy]

to confuse things even more, I am certain that I have seen in Skies of Pern (my copy has been borrowed by a sister, so I cannot check) where Lessa or F'lar refer to the other as husband or wife, and I'm pretty sure other riders did too.
Could someone check this out for me?

[B`dgyr]

Taking care of the dragons cut into the permanent relationships in the early settling of Pern's weyrs but for Sean and Sorka since they wed due to her being pregnant by him.
I'm guessing the descendants of the Dragonriders chose not to be married since their dragons care came first, and the queenriders could temporarily choose the man they want to lead their weyrs with the Leadership flights... Remember even if the queenrider disliked the Weyrleader her dragon chose with the bronze she was caught by (Like Moreta, and Sh'gall) the next Flight could replace the Weyrleader if another bronze caught the Queen that the queenrider liked the rider more the next time the Queen rose to Fly...

Purple, they didn't marry just because she got preggers. They were living together already, and were planning on gettting married. As for the short term unions, there didn't even have to be a real union, as everyone was supposed to do their part in breeding to bring the colony up to a large population. There did have to be provisions for the chlidren, you're quite right about that.

[BeckyMildan]

I think that jealousy was probably the biggest factor in dragon riders abandoning marriage. Sean and Sorka probably weren't the only married dragon riders at first but it probably died out quickly. Most people need to feel like they are number one in their spouse's life. Also the bond between dragon and rider is close enough to eliminate the need to share their life with another human. During threadfall there is the added problem of getting really close with someone who could die tomorrow. Even though I think that a lot of dragon riders probably do form long lasting relationships that are the Weyr equivelant of marriage. They may be formed later in life than in the holds and be less formal, but relationships all the same.

[ChrisG]

to confuse things even more, I am certain that I have seen in Skies of Pern (my copy has been borrowed by a sister, so I cannot check) where Lessa or F'lar refer to the other as husband or wife, and I'm pretty sure other riders did too.
Could someone check this out for me? Not that I can see. From The Skies of Pern
"I'll miss Laudey," she (Lessa) went on after nibbling at a pastry, "although I do like Langrell as Igen Holder. Very nice person."
"Handsome, too."
She shot him a glance. "He needs a good wife."

~~~

His lady Ramala was already chatting with Hosbon, seated in the main hall. She rose when Toric entered. "perhaps you would both like more klah. There's still time before Harper Sintary makes his report. Is you wife here?"

~~~

"Walk, Tenna?" Haligon asked, nodding courteously to Torlo and his wife, and extending the acknowledgment to the others in the main room.

~~~

"I suspect," and F'lessan climbed a few more steps before answering, "because Kenjo had been very clever about so many things. Like saving fuel in sacks each trip down from the Yoko so he could fly the little plane he built. And using the stone-cutters far more extensively than any other colonist. Yet what a beautiful place he designed--although, come to think of it, his wife, Ita, was artistic and it's likely she did the murals in the Hall and some of the tapestries." Those're all the instances of wife, and husband doesn't appear at all, except in the word husbandry. I don't remember dragonriders ever using those terms.

[granath]

I think that jealousy was probably the biggest factor in dragon riders abandoning marriage. Sean and Sorka probably weren't the only married dragon riders at first but it probably died out quickly. Most people need to feel like they are number one in their spouse's life. Also the bond between dragon and rider is close enough to eliminate the need to share their life with another human. During threadfall there is the added problem of getting really close with someone who could die tomorrow. Even though I think that a lot of dragon riders probably do form long lasting relationships that are the Weyr equivelant of marriage. They may be formed later in life than in the holds and be less formal, but relationships all the same.

The jealousy bit would only apply very early on. Once Pern became "feudal" women were forced to accept their men having mistresses, and at least high-ranked men spreading their seed around. By that time, though, very few people married for love, so perhaps it was easier to accept? I'm not sure about that, though, since polygamous societies here on Earth are among some of the most possessive when it comes to women.

[Vyon]

There'd be very practical reasons why divorce is practically unknown on Pern. Unless the separation was amicable and the spouse agreed to support the wife and kid, or the wife went back to her family, they'd become holdless. I suspect that a man would be able to hunt down a runaway spouse too. A fair field for fanfic, I'd say. :good: