Special Relationship?

[C_ris]

I have just started a module on the Anglo-American 'Special Relationship', and I was wondering what people thought. Is there a 'special relationship' between the US and the UK, or is it just a myth???

Please make sure that you vote in the correct country! ty!

[JayEgo]

There's a relationship, though I'm not sure you could always call it special.

Politically, Blair and Bush seem to be in things together for the sake of the world :roll: Whether or not this is the UK being led by the US is the big debate.

We do have a bond with the US and indeed, our culture in the UK seems to be slipping towards that of the US and again, whether this is a good or bad thing is another debate entirely.

We are in the shadow of the US on some counts, and leading the US in others. We are indebted to the US in a way they would never admit to with us. Perhaps this is a special relationship but I'd like to think we have more common gorunding with our neighbours in Europe. After all, this si where we need to make the most allies for the future...?

Ja¥son xx

[Dux]

:box: There's a relationship, though I'm not sure you could always call it special.

Politically, Blair and Bush seem to be in things together for the sake of the world :roll: Whether or not this is the UK being led by the US is the big debate.

We do have a bond with the US and indeed, our culture in the UK seems to be slipping towards that of the US and again, whether this is a good or bad thing is another debate entirely.

We are in the shadow of the US on some counts, and leading the US in others. We are indebted to the US in a way they would never admit to with us. Perhaps this is a special relationship but I'd like to think we have more common gorunding with our neighbours in Europe. After all, this si where we need to make the most allies for the future...?

Ja¥son xxI admit it!! :wave:

The basis of our language, culture, beliefs, political structure are all mostly from our UK roots (even if your family isn't actually descended from someone Brit.) In additon the UK has been our best and longest ally. I've always found it to be funny that despite the fact that it was France that supported us in the Revolution, and whom we allied with in The War of 1812, since that time if we had to choose between France and GB, the majority of Americans would choose GB every time.

My family originally comes from Russia, Germany and Poland. Yet when I travel abroad it's the UK that I return to constantly. It's the UK I feel more of a connection to and an understanding of. That's because in the US it's UK history and culture that we learn more about than any other (except our own of course) - because it is so intertwined with our own.

*gets off her :box:*

[AnnMarie]

I voted yes, but I'm not sure "special" is the right word. Unique?

It's a give and take , with the balance cnstantly shifting.

Oh, and BTW...do most American's even know we could have AVOIDED the War of 1812? One US General decided, without orders or Wahington's knowledge, to invade Pele Island, a Canadian-held island in Lake Erie. Had the US government actually courtmarshalled him or something, and offered appologies, the war probably never would have gone any further!

[Xhack]

There is a special relationship, but only insofar as it exists in the minds of successive British prime ministers over the past 50 years.

They boast of this relationship and claim kudos for being able to influence American foreign policy. Which is nonsense, of course. Every country acts according to what it preceives as its own national interests; that's natural and totally non-controversial.

We in the UK can "claim" influence only when the USA and UK have a convergence of interest. But then the joint policy is clearly driven by Washington; we go along, and the current premier can claim credit of influencing policy by virtue of the chimera of that special relationship.

Don't get the idea I'm being entirely cynical - sometimes that convergence of interests can be combined with a high moral intent and can be a positive force for good. Othertimes . . . ermm . . . less so.

So, in reality, no special relationship.

[Dux]

I voted yes, but I'm not sure "special" is the right word. Unique?

It's a give and take , with the balance cnstantly shifting.

Oh, and BTW...do most American's even know we could have AVOIDED the War of 1812? One US General decided, without orders or Wahington's knowledge, to invade Pele Island, a Canadian-held island in Lake Erie. Had the US government actually courtmarshalled him or something, and offered appologies, the war probably never would have gone any further!
Actually much more deviousness was going on than that one act. The people of the US were pretty much evenly divided as to whether to declare war on France or Great Britain. Both countries were hurting our trade by confiscating American ships, GB still hadn't obeyed the terms they had agreed to in the Treaty of Paris and Jay Treaty when it came to evacuting the Northwest territories of the US, GB was impressing our sailors and forcing them into the British Navy, both countries were blockading our ports and the ports of other European countries and both countries passed laws within their own countries that made it legal for them to do all of the above. President Madison basically offered a deal - first country to rescind all the offensive laws and stop interferring with US economics would get us as an ally against the other. Napoleon sent a message first that agreed (although it turned out he lied, but by the time we knew that we had already declared war against GB and it was too late).

[jen]

As an American, I think we look on the UK as a kindly old relative who is past it but whom you would never wish to insult.

[C_ris]

As an American, I think we look on the UK as a kindly old relative who is past it but whom you would never wish to insult.
With that I would disagree. 'Past it'? Our monarch is still Head of State of the Copmmonwealth - a force greater than even that of the US. And THAT cannot be sneered at. Besides, America does need a bridge to Europe. Especially now. Who are they going to use without the UK???

[Xhack]

With that I would disagree. 'Past it'? Our monarch is still Head of State of the Copmmonwealth - a force greater than even that of the US. And THAT cannot be sneered at. Besides, America does need a bridge to Europe. Especially now. Who are they going to use without the UK???

C'mon, C_ris, the Commonwealth? With the Queen on a white charger, leading her army of former colonies? If the Commonwealth has a strength, it is in common values and aspirations. As a politico-military force, it just ain't going to happen. It's too diverse. There are an infinitessimally small set of circumstances when the Commonwealth could unite to be a military force of consequence. And, given Britian's former role, the command structure would be a nightmare.

As for Britian being a bridge to Europe, we were in fact America's "unsinkable carrier" off the shore of Europe for the duration of the Cold War. That was largely the extent of the "special relationship" that existed then. PLUS - We were also a useful - essential - counter-balance to the French who resolutely stayed outside NATO during most of the crucial period. We also provided crucial Human Intelligence and listening post facilities to supplement and complement the American technical excellence. Treaties, such as the shabby Diego Garcia deal, gave the American military global reach. In those respects we were useful

Then came a period when Britian turned towards Europe with American encouragement as the Cold War entered its end game. It didn't last long as European Community and the US faced up in GATT and WTO disputes. Suddenly Britain became flavour of the month again as a 'bridgehead'.

The rest, as they say, is history. Or rather Gulf One onwards . . .recent history.

:O Sorry, folks that kinda turned into a political history dissertation. :erm:

So, C-ris, I'd say that if there is a special relationship, the traffic is mainly one way. And that's fine for America; if they can pull the deal, good on 'em. What the UK gets out of it is more problematical - except maybe the proud boast of being Washington's "bestest friend'. From a purely pragmatic political viewpoint, that doesn't butter many parsnips.

[C_ris]

I do agree with you Xhack... but i got a bit patriotic back there :roll:

I think that there IS a two way traffic. We gain the benefit of being seen as the 'best friend' of the the only current superpower. And that is not a bad thing. However, we do most certainly give more than we recieve. I shall comment more however, as I have learnt more from my course.
Until now, only my opinion and prior 'knowledge' such as it is has been used.

Sveral questions which may to be considered by others (raised in my seminar today):

If there is an Anglo-American Special Relationship, then why?
Does the US (or the UK) have other Special Relationships?
Anglo-American Special Relationship as percieved by the 'people' and by the politicians. Differences and similarities?

[jen]

Ack c_ris! I'm sorry you felt I was sneering at the UK. You asked a question and I gave you my honest opinion. Is our attitude just? Now, that's a totally different question indeed.

[C_ris]

Ack c_ris! I'm sorry you felt I was sneering at the UK. You asked a question and I gave you my honest opinion. Is our attitude just? Now, that's a totally different question indeed.
and an honest answer is what i want! whether or not it is waht i want to hear (and if everyone said that... how boring would that be! :crazy: )

[Madrigal]

I do agree with you Xhack... but i got a bit patriotic back there :roll:

I think that there IS a two way traffic. We gain the benefit of being seen as the 'best friend' of the the only current superpower. And that is not a bad thing. However, we do most certainly give more than we recieve. I shall comment more however, as I have learnt more from my course.
Until now, only my opinion and prior 'knowledge' such as it is has been used.

Sveral questions which may to be considered by others (raised in my seminar today):

If there is an Anglo-American Special Relationship, then why?
Does the US (or the UK) have other Special Relationships?
Anglo-American Special Relationship as percieved by the 'people' and by the politicians. Differences and similarities?

Please forgive slight incoherence. I had no less than four essay exams a few hours ago.

1) I think it's mostly nostalgia on some American parts. People generally feel a need to be from somewhere, have a history reaching way way back; the closest ancestor we have in terms of culture is GB. I think that a good part of the relationship is this need--a percieved one that becomes real the more people who think it. In more practical terms, another part is probably a history of alliance that stretches pretty far back with only a few breaks. Formerly, the UK came the closest to ruling the world just about any nation's come--back when the US was young, that wasn't something to be trifled with. Economy, military, etc. Now it's somewhat reversed--the US might not be establishing colonies, but it certainly is able and often willing to bomb the hell out of various places with oil. (Not only oil. Two words: banana republic.) Much the same pattern of exploitation there. The two nations are more similar than any others are to each.

2) Other relationships: Canada, with the US and possibly with the UK. (I don't know much about relations between Canada and the UK, though; anyone help?) and the US get along rather well most times, too. But Canada always seems to be the invisible partner--you don't hear much about Canadians fighting overseas in history, even when they were right there with the Brits and Americans.

3) I think that there is no real way that Brits and the UK are percieved by Americans. There are several different ways, some more common than others--but walk out on the street and say 'hey, whaddya think of them Brits?' to ten random people, and you'll probably get a few different answers. One of the more common positive ones: the British, man-for-man, have the best soldiers in the world and have never been cowards about it. One of the more common negative ones: they're a bunch of snotty Europeans who tend to think even Ralph Nader's a redneck. Overall, I'd say most people (beyond the heritage aspect) feel rather lukewarm about the relationship--it's just there, OK, leave it to Foggy Bottom.

If pressed a bit further, it might provoke a comment like this: you know, most of us on both sides think the George Bush and Tony Blair Take on Iraq WWF Special was a very bad idea. Both people from the UK and the US protested, and continue to. (IMHO, it wasn't Bush's policies that got him reelected; it was the fact that Kerry was not personable or charismatic at all. Many of the staunch Democrats I've talked to told me they entertained very serious doubts about voting Kerry--he's that unlikeable.)

The politicians, on the other hand... have an agenda that doesn't match that of the people. The politicians have information we don't, true, and that we won't see for a good twenty to a hundred years--but they still screw up, and screwups don't foster much trust. I think that Bush & Blair may be standing together on this because there really aren't that many other politicians who will stand with them.

Give more than you recieve? What, exactly, is it that you give--and what do you think isn't being given back in turn?

PS: I can't help but think of Greece and Rome. The former was more refined; the latter had a bit more brute strength and liked taking ideas from the first.

[Madrigal]

You know, it's interesting how spread out the poll is. Do we know how many Americans vs. UK people vs. everything else we've got? Political parties?

For my part, I'm an American--liberal except when it comes to gun control, the one thing that keeps me from identifying myself as a Democrat. (Everything else keeps me from identifying as Republican. Centrist, maybe.)

[carmella]

Yes, We have a special bond. Historical if no other. So much of our culture came and still comes from our relationship with UK.


Hey Madrigal, some of us liberal Democrats aren't for gun control. Actually, I'm a moderate too, but my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.

[Xhack]

2) Other relationships: Canada, with the US and possibly with the UK. (I don't know much about relations between Canada and the UK, though; anyone help?) and the US get along rather well most times, too. But Canada always seems to be the invisible partner--you don't hear much about Canadians fighting overseas in history, even when they were right there with the Brits and Americans.
From a British perspective, there is unqualified admiration for and gratitude to Canadians. They were certainly not invisible in conflicts in the 20th century - go to any war graves cemetery in Europe for proof. My Dad was certainly b***** grateful to have them alongside in the bitter fighting for Caen during the Normandy landings. Along with the Aussies and Kiwis in the Western Desert, he rated them the best soldiers in the world. And think of them in peace-keeping roles since. Invisible? Not at all! :ok:

[Apocalypse]

From a British perspective, there is unqualified admiration for and gratitude to Canadians. They were certainly not invisible in conflicts in the 20th century - go to any war graves cemetery in Europe for proof. My Dad was certainly b***** grateful to have them alongside in the bitter fighting for Caen during the Normandy landings. Along with the Aussies and Kiwis in the Western Desert, he rated them the best soldiers in the world. And think of them in peace-keeping roles since. Invisible? Not at all! :ok:

Ditto from an Aussie POV. We were always taught that we were one of MANY countries lending a hand in Europe during the wars.....

[C_ris]

Give more than you recieve? What, exactly, is it that you give--and what do you think isn't being given back in turn?
Well the American politicians use the 'Special relationship' to push Britain in to doing things which it most likely wouldn't otherise. Such as the 'War on Terror'. Briatin was not and has not been attacked, but we still sent many of our men - who are the best trained fighting men in the world - to die in a foreign country for a cause which has nit really affect. And who else stood with America when they invaded Iraq? us. Currently i think that we are proably the only major country - and definately the only European - who supported America.

[granath]

To be honest, in most of the rest of Europe the UK is now seen as the US lapdog. Not a very flattering image, is it?

[JayEgo]

To be honest, in most of the rest of Europe the UK is now seen as the US lapdog. Not a very flattering image, is it?Not flattering but quite possibly deserved in the current political climate... Not that I think we'd be much different under other parites. In fact, I think we could indeed be a damn site worse off than we are... But that's getting into political debate on home soil, rather than this subject matter...

Ja¥son xx

[Lisa Lewis]

I agree with most people I don't think "special" is the right word..... maybe unique would be better. I know that we get a lot of our culture from the UK and I think that is where we get the unique relationship. It is the one place (aside from other UK "colonies") where we can go and be able to read the signage and talk to the "natives" without needed a english-X dictionary...

[Hans]

I don't get to vote? :(

[Dux]

I don't get to vote? :(
Why not? You're an "other".

[JayEgo]

I don't get to vote? :( Other: Yes, there is an Special Relationship 2 8.33%
Other: No, there is not a Special Relationship 1 4.17%
Other: PMD Special Relationship! 1 4.17%

You're in with this lot! :evil:

Ja¥son xx

[C_ris]

I don't get to vote? :(
you are an 'other' are you not? thats why i put the 'other' in! I want to know what non-UK and US citizens think as well as ppl in those countries.

[Hans]

OK, overlooked / misread but voted now!

[C_ris]

OK, overlooked / misread but voted now!
and...? :evil:

[Madrigal]

To be honest, in most of the rest of Europe the UK is now seen as the US lapdog. Not a very flattering image, is it?

Some parts of the liberal US see it much the same way... along with a few centrists... it's not seen as such a good thing among us either. Not all Americans like Bush & Blair. I'm definitely among them.

The US is, in my opinion, the greatest place in the world; I'm happy to have been born here and there's nowhere else I'd rather be. I've had a life I couldn't see myself living anywhere else, really, and it's a life I (most of the time) enjoy. I'd call myself a patriot. As for the rest of the world--sure, it's nice. I love traveling. But the US will always be home.

Doesn't mean I think the rest of the planet should be just like the US. In fact, that's one of the dumbest ideas I've ever heard. There's no advancing when everything's the same; there's no pressure to advance. There's no stimulus or challenge. It's boring.