Polygamy among the Lords

[Lady Arwyn]

In the series we see two cases of polygamy among the Lords Holder, Fax, with 7, and Larad with 2.

With Fax, no one seemed particularly bothered by his multiple marriages (his methods were another matter) until he married Gemma, then F'lon and Robinton have a discussion in which they ask if there is a limit to how many wives a man can have.

And with Larad, two wives are mentioned at varius times in books, first one, then the other, then the first is mentioned again. Each wife is mentioned at least twice in various time periods. Is this a sign that Lord can have multiple wives and still be looked up to (Larad is one of the more popular, admired Lords) or did Anne simply forget she already had a wife's name, make up a new one, then the next time she needed a wife for the scene, remembered the first wife's name?

What do you think of this situation? Is polygamy acceptable on Pern? Is it widespread? Limited to the Lords Holder and major Holders, is it common enough to be unremarkable but not common enough to be "common"? Or are Fax and Larad unusual cases, in the absence of a law forbidding polygamy they simply did it, Fax for conqust, Larad to either take a love to wife after marrying for politics, or vice versa.

[maiken]

I don't like the idea of Polygamy. It's all stupid. So there ya go. That's my opinion.

mai :2cent:

[Sbrock]

Thing is, in the early days of the colonies, it was kind of expected that the peeps "do their thing" to get the population up to a good level before settling down. Spread the wealth so to speak. records were kept, for obvious purposes, but it's likely that once thread came along, monogomy was forgotten, and polygamy was just considered normal.

[Ryuu]

I don't like the idea of Polygamy. It's all stupid. So there ya go. That's my opinion.

mai :2cent:you've got One :fiend: Father & FIVE :fiend: Mothers....and you're complaining????? :O

[C_ris]

I think that polygamy is accepted by Lords to ensure that threre are enough heirs of the Blood from which an acceptable candidate can be found.

[maiken]

you've got One :fiend: Father & FIVE :fiend: Mothers....and you're complaining????? :O

You have a point Ryuu. *giggles* It is acceptable but not common..i still don't like it though...


mai :roll:

[Lady Arwyn]

Thing is, in the early days of the colonies, it was kind of expected that the peeps "do their thing" to get the population up to a good level before settling down. Spread the wealth so to speak. records were kept, for obvious purposes, but it's likely that once thread came along, monogomy was forgotten, and polygamy was just considered normal.

Um, I think you mean promiscuous.

I need to define polygamy. Polygamy is formal, legal marriage of one man to more than one woman.

Polyandry is when a woman is married to more than one man

Bigamy is when a man/woman is married to two (or more) different women/men *without their knowledge or consent to the additional marriage(s)*

[ChrisG]

From The MasterHarper of Pern
"That man's determined to own the entire west coast. Slowly, by inches, he moves into an area, eliminating"--Nip drew a finger across his throat--"any opposition. He's got many spouses now, more than a sane man would wish. Doesn't the Charter restrict how many a man can have?"

"No," Robinton replied thoughtfully, pinching at his upper lip. "Actually it doesn't deal with personal relationships at all--at least the usual variety, though it is specific in the violations--" Robinton paused. "--such as rape or other unwanted acts."

"Damned Charter was written by idealists." That pretty much answers the polygamy question for me. And I do believe that Larad only had the one wife. Dulsay is mentioned first in RoP and last in SoP, while Jissamy is only mentioned in AtWoP. There's mention somewhere, though I can't seem to find it, that Larad had no other. Also, Jancis gave wristwatches to both Lord Larad and Lady Jissamy, though not Dulsay--seems a bit tactless.

And, I admit, I like Larad so I don't like the idea of him having more than one wife.

[AnnMarie]

Polygamy is legal on Pern.

And people need to remember, in many cultures here on earth, it was accepted, too.

There's no reason why Larad can't have two wives. Since he doesn't exclude either (Both show up at different functions...which is easier and cheaper than taking both of them everywhere) there's no problem there. Maybe much like the T'gellen/Mirrim/whatshername deal? The only reason that's not a poly marriage is that Dragonriders don't marry. It's still a poly relationship, and seems to work well for the people involved.

[BeckyMildan]

Thing is, in the early days of the colonies, it was kind of expected that the peeps "do their thing" to get the population up to a good level before settling down. Spread the wealth so to speak. records were kept, for obvious purposes, but it's likely that once thread came along, monogomy was forgotten, and polygamy was just considered normal.

Peeps?? I think you've got your series confused. The Peeps live in David Weber's Honor Harrington Univerise. :D

Polygamy doesn't seem to be the norm on Pern, although it seems to be acceptable. The Lord Holder has the right to (and seems expected to) produce children with women other than his wife. This makes polygamy unnessary for any reason other than political. Having one wife and several lovers is a lot less problematical than dealing with multiple wives. Even a large hold wouldn't be big enough to hold a couple of jealous wives. A mistress doesn't generally have any authority, whereas wives do. A wife can ignore a mistress but not another wife. Also, even though a Lord Holder can pick his successor from any of his male kin (or outside his family if necessary) you can bet that his ligitimate sons have a big edge.

[NeouofPern]

I think polygamy's accepted on Pern because they are so tolerant. Hey, you love two women, they both have no objections to you marrying both of them. Seems good to me. The diff between Fax and Larad was Fax was breeding his women like horses, while Larad treated his wives equally (or so the impression is given).

[Hans]

Lord Larad did not have two wives simultaneously. The two wives thing is an error on Anne's part to which she admitted and gave a solution.

As for pologamy. I think Fax was the odd one here and polygamy is not practised/accepted. Having said that there will have been score of Lords Holder through teh ages that will have had many extra-marital relationships (Anne herself said/suggested so and made a remark that a Lord throws his seed as far as he could).

[fuzzypaws]

Polygamy in the early times might have been more acceptable than it was in the later times. There needed to be a diversity of the gene pool to make Pern viable and not have genetic problems that you see with interbreeding. Even in the world today you can see the results of too small a genetic pool. Case in point the Appalations in eastern US. There is a lot of "inbreeding" going on there and there are a lot of genetic problems associated with the practice.

[Anareth]

Case in point the Appalations in eastern US. There is a lot of "inbreeding" going on there and there are a lot of genetic problems associated with the practice.

First, it's "Appalachians" (Yankees say "ap-pal-LAY-chins", those who know say "ap-ah-LACH-ans"), and second, so, you have personal knowledge of this, or are you basing your knowledge of inbreeding problems among the population of the Southeast US on a "You Might Be a Redneck..." jokebook? While I know personally that there are some isolated populations where the incidence of genetic abnormalities suggests that people are breeding closer than is considered wise (especially in a closed population), and have even seen a person from one such community, it's by no means a common situation--in fact I only can point to one case study where anything that you could call extreme inbreeding occurs, and it still didn't look like that episode of the X-Files. It's not like cousins routinely marry in the mountain Southeast, in spite of what the condescending jokes say (especially, in my experience, from snotty liberal Northeasterners, but those are just the ones I've run into.)

Sorry. I'm sure you didn't mean to imply that everyone from the mountains is an inbred hick--but that's what an awful lot of people mean when they say things like that.

[Hans]

Where does everybody get the idea that polygamy on "later Passes" Pern is "legal" and practiced? From Fax having so many wives?

I have yet to see proof of polygamy and don't even accept Fax having so many wives as proof. Fax was a law unto himself and broke charter rules and Pern "law" everywhere he could!

[Larry O-G]

[QUOTE=AnnMarie]Polygamy is legal on Pern.

And people need to remember, in many cultures here on earth, it was accepted, too.

QUOTE]

Not just was but IS! I have been to countries where a man can have up to four wifes at one time. :D My wife says don't even think about it. ;)

[BeckyMildan]

Did Fax practice polygamy or was he Pern's version of Henry VIII? Gemma is refered to as Lady Gemma, the other women mentioned are spoken of as Fax's "women". Although it is said that he married several women to legitimize his position as Lord Holder in their home holds, it doesn't say that they are still alive and well. :shhh:

[C_ris]

Did Fax practice polygamy or was he Pern's version of Henry VIII? Gemma is refered to as Lady Gemma, the other women mentioned are spoken of as Fax's "women". Although it is said that he married several women to legitimize his position as Lord Holder in their home holds, it doesn't say that they are still alive and well. :shhh:
we see them in High Reaches Hold.

[Mausey]

I think Fax and his multiple wives were unusual. He did it because he could, not because it was an accepted practice. It was his way of becoming the legitimate Lord of the many different holds. Besides, who had the cajones or the man power to tell him to stop. Indeed, Lord Holders seem to be almost a law unto themselves and unless the other Lord Holders could prove what he was doing was wrong they had no right to stop him.

[Hans]

we see them in High Reaches Hold.What do you mean exactly by that remark C_ris? Could you explain further please?

[Bamy]

Lord Larad did not have two wives simultaneously. The two wives thing is an error on Anne's part to which she admitted and gave a solution.

As for pologamy. I think Fax was the odd one here and polygamy is not practised/accepted. Having said that there will have been score of Lords Holder through teh ages that will have had many extra-marital relationships (Anne herself said/suggested so and made a remark that a Lord throws his seed as far as he could).tolocamp has a mistress that becomes his wife as soon as wife #1 dies. lady ?Pendra ignored the situation.

[Bamy]

What do you mean exactly by that remark C_ris? Could you explain further please?
i thin he is refering to the post above - you see the other wives at high reaches - when F'Lar searches for ramoths haching

[C_ris]

What do you mean exactly by that remark C_ris? Could you explain further please?
I am referring to when F'lar conveys his duty to Fax's Lady in Dragonflght. (Corgi, 1998: pp. 27-29) I am not certain that it is High Reaches, but that is what I assume, as it is referred to as 'the chief Hold of Fax, so-called Lord of the High Reaches' (p. 20). I made the comment in reply to Becky Mildn's comment about not seeing all of Fax's women alive. Although actually, to think about it does not say that he is married to any of them apart from Lady Gemma... they could just in fact be mistresses, as Fax is only mentioned as having married into one Hold (presumably Crom)(p. 22).

Now I am not actually sure that even Fax practiced polygamy, but was very unsubtle with his mistresses. As F'lar asks to 'convey my duty to your lady' (p.25). Lady, not Ladies.

I have now changed my mind. Polygamy is not practiced on pern, and I don't even think that Fax practiced it, so with Larad, I think it likely that it was just a mistake, either by Anne or the editor.

[Lady Arwyn]

There is a quote somewhere in MHoP where Robinton exclaims "Six wives? Is there no limit to the number of wives one man can have?" or something like that. Now that I have my books back, I can find it! :bouncy:

Gemma was the 6th wife, I believe, and he had 7 wives, he claimed legal control over the holds he invaded by marrying women from those holds. Gemma didn't die until Fax did, he had to have been married to another. The 7th wife may have been "Lady Tela", the other wife along for the trip. Fax cared so little for his wives that he offered them to visotors as bedmates.

I think Gemma was the ranking wife (as rank is described in Dragonsinger), therefore she was Fax's default "Lady"

[Beisla]

Where does everybody get the idea that polygamy on "later Passes" Pern is "legal" and practiced? From Fax having so many wives?

ChrisG posted a quote on that. :)
From The MasterHarper of Pern
"That man's determined to own the entire west coast. Slowly, by inches, he moves into an area, eliminating"--Nip drew a finger across his throat--"any opposition. He's got many spouses now, more than a sane man would wish. Doesn't the Charter restrict how many a man can have?"

"No," Robinton replied thoughtfully, pinching at his upper lip. "Actually it doesn't deal with personal relationships at all--at least the usual variety, though it is specific in the violations--" Robinton paused. "--such as rape or other unwanted acts."

"Damned Charter was written by idealists." .....

[Dux]

I'm not sure how widely practiced Poligamy was - but it was acceptable to have many women when you were the Lord of the Hold. I can't remember every reference but there are many instances when it is implied that there were half-blood siblings that had legal rights of inheritance (didn't Meron have half-blood children contending for holder rights?). When Jaxom had his affair with Corana he even said something about how acceptable it was for him to have other children outside from those from a future wife. "Judging from her sister's warm welcome, he assumed the Plateau Hold would not object to a half-blood addition. Success in that area would do him no harm in the eyes of Lord Holders."

I always figured the practice came about after one of the plagues. It was a way of ensuring the bloodline survived in the chance of a catastrophic event. Tolocamp wasn't married to Anilla until after Nerilka's mother died, but she did have at least one child that was Tolocamp's. Clearly it was also taken as a sign of strength and virilty to have many children.

[Hans]

With all due respect Beisla, the fact that the charter (by the Ninth pass probably several times rewritten charter - another pet project of mine) doesn't specifically mention a restriction of a number of wives doesn't mean polygamy was practised. Maybe the umpteenth version of the charter said something about not being able to take action against a Lord who had by-wives or mistresses... :)

Robinton is only pleading my case, I think, when he says the charter isn't dealing with personal relationships at all

On top of that the pasage makes complete sense if you take out this bit: He's got many spouses now, more than a sane man would wish. And IMHO I indeed think Nip might be commenting more on how many Holds or how much land a Lord can have an hold; a subject that does come back several times, more than the fact Fax has more wives

***

Thanks for the clarification C_ris!

***

Arwyn, the passage you are looking for is this one I think:

“How many has he espoused now?” Robinton demanded.
“As many as he now has holdings, I suspect,” F’lon said, and added, with a lascivious leer, “the man’s insatiable, and not just for land.”“Surely there’s a limit …”
“Let us hope so,” F’lon said.To me this is an indication of even dragonrider F'lon (with Weyr mentality) is surprised/disgusted by Fax having six wives at the time. Above all, we just don't see other evidence of polygamy, more reasons for it not being accepted as legal, I think.
I still think that Fax is wayward and handles himself contrary to every law, and (unwritten) rule Pern has, just because he wants to and wants to show he can and nobody will gainsay or stand up to him and I need lots more evidence to be even a little swayed :)

****

Dux, having more than one women was indeed "acceptable", not totally, but there is evidence it was done by Lords Holder (I think in someone of less rank it was definitely frowned upon). But having a mistress has nothing to do with polygamy :) Actually, it wasn't accepted to have many women (do give me a quote if you have one, I would greatly appreciate it); no, it was accepted that a Lord Holder had bastards. In my opinion that means something else. it means a fling, one night stand, rape etc., probably of Hold girls that wouldn;t dream of protesting too much, girls who are afraid and maybe not even displeased of carrying a child fathered by the Holder -- you never know if he is yet childless by his legal wife... hmm, nice plot for a story :)

As for Nabol... it is mentioned in Dragondrums that Nabol has "a dozen heirs of full blood" and that does indicate half bloods or bastards of Meron walking around, but again... In fact other prospective candidates all seem to be relatives rather than illegitimate sons and daughters.

Master Robinton began to name the male relatives, his voice expressionless as he intoned the list. When he had completed it, he recited it again.
"You've forgotten one. Master," Sebell said in a respectful tone. "Deckter."You could well be right in that "casting seed wide" might be a result of the plagues (plural) and Todd's new book even seems to indicate that more or less (reading between the lines here), so a very good idea that! But still, it means having a half blood walking around, not taking an extra wife (legally).

[Lady Arwyn]

I interpreted it differently. Six wives were considered excessive, but two or three might be reasonable.

I feel that Anne was tapping the Muslim tradition of allowing up to three wives *if* he can afford to support them and their children. A Muslim woman can divorce a man who married more women than he can support. It is one of the few times in Islamic Law, as it is currently interpreted, when a woman can divorce a man.

[Hans]

I know about Islam Arwyn :) And we all interpret things differently sometimes, but that is beside the point.

The point is: is this one occurrance enough to assume Anne was "tapping the Muslim tradition"? To state there is polygamy on Pern on that basis...

[Anareth]

I think if you look at Nerillka, being a holder's woman is definitely more than a one-night stand. Tolocamp's gotten at least one, IIRC more, children on Anilla, and obviously has a long-standing relationship with her, enough that she's the obvious choice to bring in when his legal lady dies. Nerillka obviously doesn't approve, but apparently it wasn't a secret, either, and obviously Lady Oma at the very least looked the other way, implying this was something not unheard of for Lords Holder to do. It's not, strictly speaking, polygamy, unless you want to start debating whether it counts as a common-law marriage, but it certainly suggests Lords didn't limit themselves.

And really, I would take as supporting evidence for having 'kept women' the fact that Pern seems very lax about inheritance laws--you basically have to be 'of the blood', but you don't have to be the legal child of two legally married parents.

Overall, I think if you look at EARLIER books, the evidence is, even in the phrasing (like the wife abducted by the dragonriders was a new wife and dearly beloved) that polygamy, official or unofficial, was more or less accepted for the highest rankers. In the later books, Anne seems to have rather backed off on this.

[bisb]

I always Fax had several wives because he wanted to. And no one could tell him differently.

[Hans]

I think if you look at Nerillka, being a holder's woman is definitely more than a one-night stand. Tolocamp's gotten at least one, IIRC more, children on Anilla, and obviously has a long-standing relationship with her, enough that she's the obvious choice to bring in when his legal lady dies. Nerillka obviously doesn't approve, but apparently it wasn't a secret, either, and obviously Lady Oma at the very least looked the other way, implying this was something not unheard of for Lords Holder to do. It's not, strictly speaking, polygamy, unless you want to start debating whether it counts as a common-law marriage, but it certainly suggests Lords didn't limit themselves.

And really, I would take as supporting evidence for having 'kept women' the fact that Pern seems very lax about inheritance laws--you basically have to be 'of the blood', but you don't have to be the legal child of two legally married parents.

Overall, I think if you look at EARLIER books, the evidence is, even in the phrasing (like the wife abducted by the dragonriders was a new wife and dearly beloved) that polygamy, official or unofficial, was more or less accepted for the highest rankers. In the later books, Anne seems to have rather backed off on this.
Good point Anareth. What's funny is that, when Cheryl and I started note-taking for the Pern Encyclopedia, about six years ago, I hit the quote about the new and dearly beloved wife (in Dragonflight) and suggested that Larad maybe had more than one wife. To this both Cheryl and Anneli said that they interpreted the "new" as Larad being newly wed, while I initially interpreted the sentence as you seem to do :)

My point still stands. You, and others, are right about Lords having "ladies on the side", maybe even structurally. They sure had bastards in the sense on illegitimate children, which seem to have often been excepted like the bastards of lords during Terran medieval times (in a positive way). However, like in Medieval times, having bastards or mistressses was certainly not polygamy (the Catholic church would have had a fit) :)

[granath]

Interesting that about illegitimate children (bastard to me is a derogatory word), especially that in Scandinavia at least inheritance rights for children born in and out of wedlock are the same as long as the father has recognized the child as his own.

I'm starting to wonder if Larad's case wasn't one of those odd name changes after all.

[Hans]

Granath, Anne told me personally (and I got mail to prove it) that "teh two wives of Larad" were a mistake because she hadn't recorded things right.

Bastard isn't meant derigatory, the word just went out of fashion. Let me assure you that (at least on) mainland Europe is wasn't used in a derigatory sense at all. That came in modern times.

[granath]

Right, thanks Hans. :ok:

[Linmag]

When the first settlers arrived on Pern, they seem to have had similar traditions regarding marriage to what is currently acceptable in the western world. They would probably have had to relax these somewhat at first in order to keep the gene pool as wide as possible, and after a couple of generations these relaxed guidelines could well have become accepted tradition. The necessity for dragonriders to foster their offspring would have further weakened the idea of the traditional, nuclear family. It became socially acceptable for lords holder to spread their favours around because of the way the tradition of succession developed. (I'm pretty sure I remember someone saying that this was not set out in the Charter, which could not have anticipated the conditions caused by Thread.) Larad's two wives have been accepted as an error, which leaves Fax as the only character who apparently indulges in polygamy. As he systematically breaks just about every rule and convention that could apply to him, it's fair to assume that this is another breach of propriety on his part, and that it would not be normal practice.

[Brenda]

Another thing that affected the nuclear family and necessitated fostering was the epidemics mentioned in "The Hold of Red's Ford" and "The Second Weyr" - so many people died that there were a lot of orphans who had to be fostered around.

[Madrigal]

First, it's "Appalachians" (Yankees say "ap-pal-LAY-chins", those who know say "ap-ah-LACH-ans"), and second, so, you have personal knowledge of this, or are you basing your knowledge of inbreeding problems among the population of the Southeast US on a "You Might Be a Redneck..." jokebook? While I know personally that there are some isolated populations where the incidence of genetic abnormalities suggests that people are breeding closer than is considered wise (especially in a closed population), and have even seen a person from one such community, it's by no means a common situation--in fact I only can point to one case study where anything that you could call extreme inbreeding occurs, and it still didn't look like that episode of the X-Files. It's not like cousins routinely marry in the mountain Southeast, in spite of what the condescending jokes say (especially, in my experience, from snotty liberal Northeasterners, but those are just the ones I've run into.)

Sorry. I'm sure you didn't mean to imply that everyone from the mountains is an inbred hick--but that's what an awful lot of people mean when they say things like that.

Blue Fugates? There had to be something going on there as well... having two people marry with the same gene from very diverse backgrounds is a huge coincidence... and then for it to be perpetuated... I don't remember all the details, but yeah.

(In my defense: I used to spend my summers in West Virginia.
Against it--there was a married pair of cousins in the town. No kids, though.)

[wulfin]

i was re-reading Moreta.. and came across this line (pb us edition, pg. 258)...
"[Alessan] had to have an acknowledged wife, and others to bear his children, as many as he could beget." Now, an acknowledged wife..and "others".. would the others refer to other wives ..OR 'mistresses' (for lack of a better word). The word "acknowledged" could change the interpretation of this one sentence completely... or am i just off my rocker? (wouldn't be the first time!)

[Hans]

Don't think you are Wulf :)

This is what Anne repeatedly hints at/mentions, that the Lords are more or less expected to "cast their seed wide" and breed many offspring and, like somebody else already said, that could very well not be frowned upon (not even for common people?) much because it seems an age old custom on Pern that came into being because of the several plagues (as mentioned in Chronicles, Moreta and Dragonsblood). Again I say... that is no reason to say that polygamy, as in legally having more wives, was practised on Pern.

[Kath]

I don't think polygamy is expected, or even approved on Pern. But as far as Lord Holders go, monogamy appears to be the exception rather than the rule, and the same thing effectively applies in the weyrs.

Trouble is, the Holders only accept that behaviour in males, whereas the weyrs are somewhat more liberal. Chauvinism vs. Free love, if you will.

[Raisha]

I don't believe that marriage is one of the laws that was laid out in the Charter, from what we know of it; it only governs the inheritance and distribution of property: the more kids you have, the more property you're entitled to. That would mean that it was up to individual Lord Holders to write their own marriage laws. And if you have more wives, you have more kids, and you can get more property. The Charter inadvertantly encourages polygyny so long as there is plenty of land to go around. Since the Pernese continue to expand in the 9th Pass, I don't see any shortage of land for some time.

[Aurelia]

larad and fax were the only two modern examples of polygamy....so i doubt it's really widespread.

[Lady Arwyn]

The only two we see. Anne only lets us see a few select individuals, mostly from certain levels of society and generally only the ones that she needs to move the story along. We see several weyrmated pairs, which are supposed to be very rare, and almost no deaths of dragonriders in Threadfall, which are supposed to be vre common.

From these examples it is hard to extrapolate on how common the practice may be, it may be more common, it may be less common than she illustrates in the story. She does give a clue though, when she has F'lon and Robinton discuss the issue and not get upset about the number of marriages until it reaches a half dozen. It indicates (to me) that multiple marriage is not uncommon, but within reason, like two or three wives, is OK. Six is considered excessive.

[Aurelia]

I found something else that might be interpreted to point to Lord Holder polygamy.

In DQ (USA), on page 13, it reads, "Manora had seen twice the Turns that, for instance, Lord Sifer of Bitra's latest wife had, yet Manora looked younger."

Either Lord Sifer was a widow and remarried, or he kept marrying younger women.

[BeckyMildan]

A lot of men on Pern probably had more then one wife during their lifetime. Considering their level of medicine, childbirth was most likely a major cause of death for women. This would also contribute to wives "looking the other way" when he slept around. After the first couple of kids many of them may have felt "better them then me."

[Aurelia]

Do we know exactly how many wives Fax had? Where did it say that.....I could only find this from MHoP:

"They say he's got six, seven spouses, all of "em pregnant." Then he chuckled and his droll face lit up. "Can't seem to get himself a son." Robinton laughed too. "We don't need more of his ilk!""

The only two I found were Gemma and Tela and that he was, from DF online, "He was a lecherous man by reputation."

[Shalyn]

Don't think you are Wulf :)

This is what Anne repeatedly hints at/mentions, that the Lords are more or less expected to "cast their seed wide" and breed many offspring and, like somebody else already said, that could very well not be frowned upon (not even for common people?) much because it seems an age old custom on Pern that came into being because of the several plagues (as mentioned in Chronicles, Moreta and Dragonsblood). Again I say... that is no reason to say that polygamy, as in legally having more wives, was practised on Pern.

You do NOT want to know the mental picture I get when I hear the words "cast his seed wide". I shall go crawl back into my gutter now.


The only two I found were Gemma and Tela and that he was, from DF online, "He was a lecherous man by reputation."

I don't think Tela was his wife though. Wasn't that the woman who he "gave" to F'lar to keep him company during his journey through his area, and who was pregnant by him. I thought that she was Fax's mistress, and F'lar wasn't sure if she was just an ignorant git, or if Fax had instructed her to insult F'lar by telling him she was pregnant.

[Lady Arwyn]

I don't think Tela was his wife though. Wasn't that the woman who he "gave" to F'lar to keep him company during his journey through his area, and who was pregnant by him. I thought that she was Fax's mistress, and F'lar wasn't sure if she was just an ignorant git, or if Fax had instructed her to insult F'lar by telling him she was pregnant.
She was indeed one of his wives, she was titled "Lady" Tela. Since she was pregnant already, Fax didn't particularly care if she bedded other men. And he didn't have "one" mistress, besides his wives he seemed to have an entire harem of them.

[Brenda]

There were a LOT of "ladies" there, and I don't think most of them were spouses.

[Lady Arwyn]

Well, 7 of them were. He had one spouse per Hold. He married them to get "legal" control of each Hold after he had killed off all of the other possible claimants.

[Brenda]

No, because he already had a blood claim to High Reaches, and one other I think...

[Aurelia]

I think that many were mistresses, and, since he seemed to only get daughters thus far (see MHoP quote), he'd legitimize any son they bore him.

DF online:

"It was obvious that Fax's other ladies were of no use. They were huddled at one side of the high bed, wringing their hands and talking in shrill, excited tones. It remained to Lessa and the birthing-woman to remove Gemma's clothing, to ease her and hold her hands against the contractions."

"Lady Tela was nervously jabbering away at him about the terrible condition of the rooms to which Lady Gemma and the other ladies of the Lord's procession had been assigned.
"The shutters, both sets, were ajar all winter long, and you should have seen the trash on the floors. We finally got two of the drudges to sweep it all into the fireplace. And then that smoked something fearful till a man was sent up." Lady Tela giggled. "He found the access blocked by a chimney stone fallen aslant. The rest of the chimney, for a wonder, was in good repair."
She waved her handkerchief. F'lar held his breath as the gesture wafted an unappealing odor in his direction.
He glanced up the Hall toward the inner Hold door and saw the Lady Gemma descending, her steps slow and awkward. Some subtle difference about her gait attracted him, and he stared at her, trying to identify it.
"Oh, yes, poor Lady Gemma," Lady Tela babbled, sighing deeply. "We are so concerned. Why my Lord Fax insisted on her coming I do not know. She is not near her time, and yet...".

"'F'lar was heartily bored with the lady Fax had so courteously assigned him. She giggled incessantly and sneezed constantly. She waved about, but did not apply to her nose, a scarf or handkerchief long overdue for a thorough washing. A sour odor, compounded of sweat, sweet oil, and rancid food smells, exuded from her. She was also pregnant by Fax. Not obviously so, but she had confided her condition to F'lar, either oblivious to the insult to the dragonman or directed by her Lord to let drop the information. F'lar deliberately ignored the matter and, except when her company was obligatory on this Search journey, had ignored her, too."

[Vyon]

As for Nabol... it is mentioned in Dragondrums that Nabol has "a dozen heirs of full blood" and that does indicate half bloods or bastards of Meron walking around, but again... In fact other prospective candidates all seem to be relatives rather than illegitimate sons and daughters.



Surely, in the absence of race or colour or tribe on Pern, "a dozen heirs of full blood" must mean that they are the offspring of two legal spouses, while the "half-bloods" are the offspring of the Lord and somebody other than his one or more legal spouses? The term halfblood then avoids the derogary aspects of the words "illegitimate" or "bastard." They wouldn't be "illegitimate" unless there was a law or custom denying them legitimacy. Since they can inherit there would appear to be no such law in the Charter.

As for the Lord Holders having more than one spouse, I've always understood from the quotes already given that they could, though it was not usual, and that six was considered excessive, as was Fax's treatment of his spouses. The "Lady Holder" would be the oldest or chief wife, as it is in some cultures on Earth.

"The Charter" - frankly, I think it had reached the status of a myth or something talked about in the academic reaches of Masterharperdom. Fax doesn't seem to be the only one who acnowledged no law, though he was an extreme. The other Lord Holder's tolerance of his excesses would indicate to me that there wasn't any universal law except that the Holder was autonomous in his own territory.

[Lady Arwyn]

An "heir of full blood" could also be nephews (or nieces,although girls are rarely considered unless there is no male heir), sons of the Lord's brothers and sisters, or cousins. Since the heir is not usually named before the death of a Lord, and the Lord's choice isn't always the one chosen by the Conclave, then most or all of the cousins would have an excellent chance of achieving a "good marriage" to advance their claim on the Hold.

A "full blood" would be from a marriage to another person with some claim to decendancy from the Lords, such as a marriage between, ummm, Jaxom and Aramina. Never mind the age difference. Half-blood would be children from a marriage to another Hold's line.

So despite being a direct decendant through legal marriages, Jaxom is a halfblood and his claim on Ruatha is technically fairly tenuous, he has too much Crom and High Reaches blood. He would do well to stregnthen his decendants' claim by marrying his children either to one of Aramina's children or if F'lessan has children with Tai, to those children to achieve something similar to full blood again.

[Mausey]

Ladies is just a term used, Anne wasn't going to call them Fax's whores or slaves was she. The "ladies" for the most part didn't have a choice in what happened to them. Fax and his men swooped down and grabbed any female who looked halfway decent.

From what I read, I'd guess Fax had 7 wives and countless mistresses. The wives he had so he could claim their holdings and the mistresses he had to prove how manly he was. *gags*

Sending a female who was pregnant to F'lar was an insult. No woman belonging to Fax was going to bear dragonseeed.

[Bamy]

<snip> Having said that there will have been score of Lords Holder through teh ages that will have had many extra-marital relationships (Anne herself said/suggested so and made a remark that a Lord throws his seed as far as he could).I believe that that is mentioned in moreta and definitely in nerilka where the step mother and family are brought over the watch heights...

[Aurelia]

I found a direct reference from DE online that shows polygamy does happen:

"And it's not that he doesn't have other daughters,' said Salda, taking
her husband's arm to speed up his progress.

"He's got upwards of a dozen children and had two wives already [Debera's father].
At the rate he's been making these arrangements of his, he'll have
himself sufficient land among his relatives to start his own Hold. Not
that anyone in their right mind would want him as a Lord Holder."

Theypaused outside the Ground now. Adroitly, Zulaya and K'vin chose a
position so that they could also keep a weather eye on the newly-hatched
who, with the help of their riders, were rapidly devouring the piles of
cut meat prepared for their initial feeding.

[Brenda]

It doesn't count as polygamy if the wives aren't all alive. Debera's father had basically been keeping his wives pregnant until they died in childbirth. "You'll wear her out the same way you did ---." He wasn't married to all of them at the same time.

[Vyon]

In the countries that do have polygamy, the wives are often sisters. That would increase the chance of begetting a heir by that breeding.

However, when Anne does mention multiple wives, it is often not clear whether they were consecutive or serial.

"Fax's women" simply means the women who were travelling with him. I've always seen them as his spouses and their maids. Given Fax's habits, the probability is that they would all be pregnant by him. To me, "Lady Tela" would appear to be a junior spouse, and the insult calculated.

For myself, I was best friends with my ex-husband's first wife, which caused some confusion since our sirname is very rare in New Zealand.

"Oh, you've got the same name, are you sisters?"

We now call each other "sister-in-law" as in "Oh, we're related by marriage" - we don't have to say to the same man!

[Lady Arwyn]

Actually they aren't usually sisters, after marriage they become "sister-wives," which indicates a familial relationship in which sexual contact is not considered acceptable. In the case of bisexual women married to each other *and* share a husband, they are simply wives to each other.

However, many studies have shown that in multiple marriages where there are several women they tend to end up in sexual relationships with their sister-wives, even if they didn't start out lesbian or bisexual.

[Dragongirl]

Maybe much like the T'gellen/Mirrim/whatshername deal? The only reason that's not a poly marriage is that Dragonriders don't marry. It's still a poly relationship, and seems to work well for the people involved.[/QUOTE]



I reckon F'lar and Lessa were pretty damn close to marriage.

Even though it's accepted on Pern I don't like the whole polygamy thing. Probably another reason I hated Fax so much.

Oh and the Monaco Weyrwoman's name is Talina, rider of gold Arwith AnnMarie

[Brenda]

And I don't think she and T'gellan have a sexual relationship other than during flights; she just is discreet enough to keep up a united front as leaders.

[Aurelia]

And I don't think she and T'gellan have a sexual relationship other than during flights; she just is discreet enough to keep up a united front as leaders.

I think Talina and T'gellan probably collaborate a bit more than just on flights...they may not sleep together otherwise, but she is still Weyrwoman. She helped a lot during the Monaco Bay tsunami (remember how weary she looked at the Leaders' conference?), and I think she handles most Weyrwomanly duties, along with Mirrim, T'gellan's true love, handling some (probably a bit more briskly).

[Lady Arwyn]

*sigh*

I still think Mirrim does Wing (like Wingsecond/Weyrsecond) duties, not the Weyrwoman's duties.

[toadkiller]

And I don't think she and T'gellan have a sexual relationship other than during flights; she just is discreet enough to keep up a united front as leaders.

But we don't have any reason to think they don't - and tradition would seem to indicate that they do. Certainly there's a french term that I just can't recall :angelbell that would seem to make sure they all got along.

[Lady Arwyn]

Actually there are a couple of comments in the book about the lack of relationship between T'gellan and Talina.

Actually, tradition does NOT have any indication of a relationship between the Weyrleaders, UNLESS the Weyrwoman had a preference before the flight, which can influence the outcome.

With no preference you get partnerships like Moreta/ Sh'gall (she wouldn't let him anywhere near her private chambers!), Mardra/T'ton (she would sleep with anything that rode bronze) and Kylara/? (I forget). Generally they work well together (although I doubt anyone could work well with Kylara) and their work isn't complicated by lovers' spats or even a permanant breakup. A romantic relationship between Weyrleaders can be a major liability! This is one of the reasons that monogamy is discouraged in the Weyr, monogamous type personalties like Tai and Brekke are considered to be a real problem.

I have always assumed that Talina has her own honey on the side.

[Brenda]

I'd like to think it's about like Sh'gall and Moreta - they are a partnership, they fulfill their duties as leaders, but it is strictly platonic except during flights. I don't think Mirrim has taken over the Weyrwoman's duties, just taken on more because she likes being in charge of something.

[Mausey]

I agree with you Brenda, Mirrim NEEDS to be busy. If I recall correctly, she was being trained as a Headwoman before she impressed Path. It would be a shame to let the training go to waste just because she has a dragon. I can see her taking over some of the more domestic duties of the Weyrwoman simply because she already has the knowledge. She understands how the lower caverns work and what goes on.

There isn't much info given about Talina so we have no idea what training she brought to the weyr. For all we know she's an absolute genius with hides and furs and makes exquisite clothes.

[Aurelia]

Actually there are a couple of comments in the book about the lack of relationship between T'gellan and Talina.

Actually, tradition does NOT have any indication of a relationship between the Weyrleaders, UNLESS the Weyrwoman had a preference before the flight, which can influence the outcome.

With no preference you get partnerships like Moreta/ Sh'gall (she wouldn't let him anywhere near her private chambers!), Mardra/T'ton (she would sleep with anything that rode bronze) and Kylara/? (I forget). Generally they work well together (although I doubt anyone could work well with Kylara) and their work isn't complicated by lovers' spats or even a permanant breakup. A romantic relationship between Weyrleaders can be a major liability! This is one of the reasons that monogamy is discouraged in the Weyr, monogamous type personalties like Tai and Brekke are considered to be a real problem.

I have always assumed that Talina has her own honey on the side.

You mean T'bor (Kylara's mate)? Kylara definitely had her own things on the side......but she once seduced F'lar. Since she came to Benden for Ramoth's first Hatching, and T'kil was suspected by Lessa to be F'lar's son, it must have happened after Lessa and F'lar got together......she must have been rather peeved about it, seeing as they had gotten close by then.

[Mausey]

I'm guessing any relationship F'lar and Kylara had was before Ramonth flew for the first time. Lessa is not the type to sit and let her choice of mate fool around with anybody else. I get the feeling that had Lessa even suspected anything, Kylara wouldn't have lived long enough to impress.

[Aurelia]

I'm guessing any relationship F'lar and Kylara had was before Ramonth flew for the first time. Lessa is not the type to sit and let her choice of mate fool around with anybody else. I get the feeling that had Lessa even suspected anything, Kylara wouldn't have lived long enough to impress.

Lessa wouldn't've had Kylara "rubbed out"....she wouldn't sink that low. The Ruathan in her wouldn't let her do it. And I think you were right about Kylara coming before Ramoth's flight - didn't she stand for Ramoth, then Impress Prideth?

[Lady Arwyn]

Lessa knew about F'lar and Kylara's fling, but she was also aware that the child was not by F'lar. I think the parentage was established, and Kylara even named her child in a manner to avoid confusion Had she followed conventional naming - start of the father's name (T'bor) and end of the mother's (Kylara. But T'lar would have sounded too much like F'lar, so she used the first part of her name instead - T'kil (which really should be Tamakil or something like that) . It still indicated parentage without implicating F'lar.

I guess she was still a decent human being at that point. Later on I could easily see her happily allowing F'lar to be implicated as possible father.

But Lessa, fully aware of the past physical relationship and worried about Kylara's continued interest in F'lar, made sure as best she could that Kylara Impressa gold... so that she could be sent away from "her" man.

[Aurelia]

*snip*

But Lessa, fully aware of the past physical relationship and worried about Kylara's continued interest in F'lar, made sure as best she could that Kylara Impressa gold... so that she could be sent away from "her" man.

Imagine if Kylara had stayed at Benden as a junior weyrwoman under Lessa... :faint: She was supposed to be sent to Fort, but Lessa brought back the Oldtimers by then. :D

[Mausey]

Lessa wouldn't've had Kylara "rubbed out"....she wouldn't sink that low. The Ruathan in her wouldn't let her do it. And I think you were right about Kylara coming before Ramoth's flight - didn't she stand for Ramoth, then Impress Prideth?

Wouldn't sink that low? Is this the same Lessa who arranged to have at least one of the warders killed. "His boney head still rolled around in one of the upstairs fireplaces." The same Lessa who manipulated dragonriders and Fax into a fight. Oh no, I believe that if Lessa thought Kylara was any kind of a threat she'd have been gone, one way or another. Until she impressed Prideth, Kylara was walking a very fine rope with Lessa.

[Dragongirl]

Imagine if Kylara had stayed at Benden as a junior weyrwoman under Lessa... :faint: She was supposed to be sent to Fort, but Lessa brought back the Oldtimers by then. :D

ooh! ooh!:eek2::megaphone CATFIGHT AT BENDEN!!:cat2: :eek:
COME ONE COME ALL!!!:devil: :redfruit: *major scramble*

[Aurelia]

ooh! ooh!:eek2::megaphone CATFIGHT AT BENDEN!!:cat2: :eek:
COME ONE COME ALL!!!:devil: :redfruit: *major scramble*

I agree. Lucky for Lessa Celina was the type that "anyone could get along with" - like F'lessan said in ATWoP. She couldn't stand having another dominant woman personality like herself riding gold.

[toadkiller]

You know, I've never really liked Lessa. *GASP* I said it.

[Lady Arwyn]

I agree toadkiller.

Lessa really is a domineering b*tch. And that's an insult to female dogs. If it weren't for the fact that she was needed fora very specific task, I don't think she really is suited to being a Weyrwoman at all. Under her (and F'lar's) control, the Weyrs went from their intended place on Pern as autonomous, independant groups who interact with the Holds and Crafts only when necessary for the protection of Pern to jointly controlling all of Pern with Harper Hall.

And as for (Lessa/Ramoth) not tolerating more than two other golds at Benden , that's inexcusable. As a Weyrwoman and Senior gold their duty is to the Weyr, it is inexcusably self-centered. She is a jealous, insecure woman who is not really any better than Kylara. Just imagine the nightmare she might have been if Kylara had Impressed Ramoth and Lessa had to take seconds with Prideth, then exiled to Southern. Kylara's hijinks would have been tame in comparason.

[toadkiller]

The whole "only one dragon can fly MY queen" thing is selfish too. Bad for the weyr and bad for F'Lar. Like six months off wouldn't be a good thing for him over the course of 50 YEARS!

But we have a whole other thread for this. :)

[Dragongirl]

Make for a good romance novel but....yes I agree it is abit selfish with the whole only two other queens and only one bronze thing...But wasn't it more Ramoth that wouldn't allow more than two junior queens?

[Lady Arwyn]

Ramoth's attitude I believe is very much a reflection of Lessa's attitude. She is jealous, bitchy and holds no room for others who may also want some power for themselves. She found a couple who could tolerate having *zero* power in the Weyr, but most gold riders have some measure of ambition. Lessa is healthy and it will be decades before she has to give up her title. Eventualy one would try to take SOME of the power, Lessa is one person, she is supposed to delegate but I bet she would never give anything of any importance to another goldrider. Only menial stuff. Lessa sees to it that the ones with ambition go elsewhere, both for their good and for her own personal power trip.

[Dragongirl]

hmmm...I wish we could delve right into F'lar's mind or even ask Mnementh why F'lar was attracted to her apart from the fact that Lessa's pretty and intelligent and THE QUEEN RIDER. Mabey it was because she was playing major hard-to-get and F'lar's always seemed like the kinda guy who loves a challenge...*shakes head* Pity I don't know telepathy...What is it with guys and being annoyingly persisting in the hard-to-get thing? *sighs*

[edith]

It could be the whole rescuing of her?

She does calm down. A lot of the all hail Benden appears to be down to the Harper Hall. It makes you wonder what'll happen when Lessa and F'lar retire/ die.

[Ryuu]

:wow: this was a long time dormant thread! :D

[edith]

I think someone voted and didn't post. I voted and thought I'd better contribute as I find zombie threads (not quite alive) a bit annoying!

[Ryuu]

:laugh:

Yeah, we've got several threads with that topic of discussion right now.

[Brenda]

Woohoo! Look what I started!

[Dragongirl]

The whole "only one dragon can fly MY queen" thing is selfish too. Bad for the weyr and bad for F'Lar. Like six months off wouldn't be a good thing for him over the course of 50 YEARS!

But we have a whole other thread for this. :)

:yeah: Do you honestly see him handling 'six months off'? Not being Leader for even a week would probably send him totally bonkers! :faint:

[toadkiller]

But that isn't realistic, is what I'm saying. Real people don't manage to work at that level for 50 years without breaks.

[C_ris]

Good leaders delegate, however.

[Ryuu]

But that isn't realistic, is what I'm saying. Real people don't manage to work at that level for 50 years without breaks.But Weyrleader or not, he's a dragonrider...the workload would still be mostly the same whether he's in charge of the entire Weyr or just a wing: Fighting Thread.

[Aurelia]

But Weyrleader or not, he's a dragonrider...the workload would still be mostly the same whether he's in charge of the entire Weyr or just a wing: Fighting Thread.

That's also one of the reasons the end of Thread is so scary for the riders: they don't just have no place to go, really, but they have absolutely no idea what to expect in terms of dragonkind and its place in society.

[persephone]

F'lar does seem to like to delegate: he's got N'ton of Fort, T'gellen of Monaco, K'van wherever he ended up, and D'ram doing stuff for him, not to mention the entire Harper Hall, and Ruatha Hold. And it hasn't been 50 years quite yet: just forty :doh: And we don't really see all forty, just every once in a while. He probably has some off years, or something. And really, how much do power struggles at the top affect your work-a-day Pernese? The average person probably doesn't know about or care about what the high muckity-mucks are doing, as long as life is tolerable.

[Dragongirl]

Actually, I do remember Lessa thinking about how F'lar hated delegating at first, but after that knife fight at Telgar that left him so weak and unable to do much he had to delegate because he was running himself ragged and the weakness and fever was primarily due to him pushing himself too hard(betweening with a wound etc)...and people, especially Lessa, were noticing too.

I know the passage is in TWD somewhere where it says that after he realised he couldn't do everything he started delegating; to N'ton, F'nor, T'gellan and Lessa herself.

[toadkiller]

But Weyrleader or not, he's a dragonrider...the workload would still be mostly the same whether he's in charge of the entire Weyr or just a wing: Fighting Thread.


Well that is clearly just not the case.

[Dragongirl]

I won't disagree with you there TK, F'lar would have quite a bit to look after. He is the Weyrleader of Pern, Pern looks to him. So yes, he would have more to look after. But that is why he ends up delegating.

But I see what Ryuu means too. Despite all his other responsibilities(which I stress again, he ends up delegating), he is first and foremost a dragonrider and the Weyrleader of Benden Weyr. He'd still have a fair amount of work; keeping his wings in order, training them and making sure they're up to par and most important of all, making sure he and his Weyr can fight Thread. But that is also what Wingleaders and Wingseconds are there for, to help him along. He also has Lessa, who, as Weyrwoman, works alongside him with her own queenriders to ensure everything is right and that the Weyr can fight Thread. Really, everything he works for balls down to that one thing; fighting Thread.

So is it really that strange that he can work for that period of time without going nuts? He isn't doing it alone thats for sure. He is also a very strong and very intelligent person(Lessa herself marvels at how he is still so energetic and filled with vitality in AtWoP, when he is obviously getting older).

And besides, I daresay he would use those days when Thread doesn't fall as time to sleep, relax and recuperate.
Assuming of course Ramoth doesn't rise that day...but then again, he'd probably see that as an fun way to relax too. :evil: :redfruit:

[Dragongirl]

Isn't it funny how Threads go off topic...we've gone from Polygamy on Pern to F'lar's work ethics. :evil:


Just had to say that. :redfruit: