Original Dragons

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

I was just looking through the DLG and really thought about the size when it said that the original dragons were 16-18 hands tall at the shoulder and 10-12 feet long. So thats roughly 6 feet tall, right? If thats true, then they would have been impossibly short lengthwise. Thats only enough from the nose to rump! If *somehow* that were the real length, the body would be about the size of a large dog, that doesn't look right in my head. Are these measurements excluding the tail? If they are, that messes up the lengths of modern day dragons and we'd have to double their length. Or am I just missing something here?

[wulfin]

i'd compare them more to a horse than a dog by those measurements.. LOL :D It's been a while since i've dragged out the DLG.

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

Well a horse is near 10 feet long without a long tail sticking out. A dragons tail is half is full length, so if its included, that makes the body only the size of a large dog.

[fuzzypaws]

Let's think about this logically, if a dragon were the size of a dog it could not carry it's rider nor fight thread. If we do not include the tail that makes it more of a usable size and therefore something that Kitty Ping might have been trying for. When you stand 5'nothing 6 feet anything is pretty tall. Those of us that are vertically challanged understand.

[wulfin]

i would honestly say that i would think that the 10-12 feet does NOT include the tail. You say a horse is 10 feet long..holy cow, my 1/4 horse musta been awfully compact.. He was 17 hands high.. but i know he was NOT 10 feet long.. 8.5 is more along the lines what i would guess.. LOL.

[Lady Arwyn]

Well a horse is near 10 feet long without a long tail sticking out.

:Choke:

A horse is nearly 10 feet long?

I've been hanging out around the wrong horses...

A horse is measured from the front of their chest to the back of thier rump. The neck is not measured. In height, the height if the head is not measured, but the height of the withers (just behind the base of the neck, where the neck and back meet.

Why? Because if you measure including the neck and head that measurement will change every time, as they raise or lower, stretch out or pull in their head.

Anne has long said that Pern dragons are built like horses, it would make sense that she would measure them like horses. Especially the smaller, early dragons whose size was much on par with a large draft horse. It probably wasn't until later, when dragons grew much larger, that they were measured nose to tip of tail.

So add on the neck and tail (I just measured my dog's tail, it's 1/2 the legnth of her body) and they would be about 18 feet long, 2 feet smaller than the smallest of the 9th Pass greens, and probably about the same size as Ruth. AIVAS photos indicate that even Ruth was a bit larger than the origional dragons!

Anyway, ignore the DLG, most of us do for most issues. It's notoriously unreliable.

[AnnMarie]

In DD, Sean makes a comment about Carenath at less than a year being slightly larger and sturdier than his stallion, Cricket. Cricket was, I believe 16 or 17 hands high.

[Mayhem]

I remember that bit! I definatley got the impression that dragons were more horse sized to begin with.

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

:Choke:

A horse is nearly 10 feet long?

I've been hanging out around the wrong horses...

A horse is measured from the front of their chest to the back of thier rump. The neck is not measured. In height, the height if the head is not measured, but the height of the withers (just behind the base of the neck, where the neck and back meet.

Why? Because if you measure including the neck and head that measurement will change every time, as they raise or lower, stretch out or pull in their head.

Anne has long said that Pern dragons are built like horses, it would make sense that she would measure them like horses. Especially the smaller, early dragons whose size was much on par with a large draft horse. It probably wasn't until later, when dragons grew much larger, that they were measured nose to tip of tail.

So add on the neck and tail (I just measured my dog's tail, it's 1/2 the legnth of her body) and they would be about 18 feet long, 2 feet smaller than the smallest of the 9th Pass greens, and probably about the same size as Ruth. AIVAS photos indicate that even Ruth was a bit larger than the origional dragons!

Anyway, ignore the DLG, most of us do for most issues. It's notoriously unreliable.

Oh ok, sorry I was including the neck and head in the length. I know that the first dragons were supposed to be horse sized, but thought that the measurements were way off track if the tails were incorperated in the measurements.

So that makes an original bronze about the size of a modern green. Now that I think about it, the sizes of the modern ones wouldn't need to be adjusted, it makes sense now.

[C_ris]

I also have the impression that the first dragons were about the size of a horse when they were fully grown.

[Aurelia]

dragons grew as the Turns went on. i.e. Alaranth was much bigger than Faranth

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

I wouldn't call it MUCH bigger, but she was larger. Alaranth was a hand taller than Faranth, full grown.

[Monkeysrule]

Okay, how long exactly is a hand when talking about measuring animals?
I think of originals to be a little bigger than horse, longer, more heavily built, and sort of muscular near the wing shoulders and hind legs. The arms are shorter than a horse's, and the neck is also longer.

[Mayhem]

thinking on it, Sean said Carrnath was around the same height as Cricket sure... At the time, Carenath was only a year old, so wouldn't that mean he'd grow at least another few inches? I'd call the dragons to have been around 19 hh at the withers fully grown, making them on a par with my shire, Sunshine. I think that'd be a good size for a dragon to be, 19hh is pretty dammned tall!

[Lady Arwyn]

Okay, how long exactly is a hand when talking about measuring animals?
A hand is 4 inches

[Monkeysrule]

Thanks!

<-----city person; no experience with horses whatsoever and schools refuse to teach measurements other than metric

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

Okay, how long exactly is a hand when talking about measuring animals?
I think of originals to be a little bigger than horse, longer, more heavily built, and sort of muscular near the wing shoulders and hind legs. The arms are shorter than a horse's, and the neck is also longer.
A hand is 4 inches I think? Not sure, maybe 6... I'm not that great with measurements that aren't originally stated in inches :laugh: *edit* ok, LA just verified the 4 inches :D

I agree with you on your description, and it fits in with what Anne described. First generation they are just a hand taller than an average horse, I think - bronze, anyway - and longer in the body. The front legs have to be quite a bit shorter, as they are described as ungainly and unbalanced walking on the ground. This walk is long. I would rather fly on ahead, Carenath said, doing his hop-skip beside Sean. Once again Sean thought that his brave and lovely Carenath looked like a bad cross between a rabbit and kangaroo.

[Aurelia]

Remember in ATWoP when AIVAS compares the size of Faranth and Carenath on the screen to Ramoth and Mnementh? they were a lot bigger!

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

Yup, 3 times bigger. They had exceeded their parameters by far, most likely due to mutations from excessive inbreeding. I think the maximum size according to Kitti Ping's plan was achieved by the 6th Pass, tops.

"Your ancestors did not have dragons the size and intelligence of yours. The species has evolved and exceeded the original genetic specifications. If you will observe..." Images of two dragons flicked onto Aivas's screen. "The bronze is Carenath, Sean O'Connell is his rider, and the other is Faranth and Sorka Hanrahan." Two more dragons appeared on screen, three times the size of the first two. "Now, there are Ramoth and Mnementh. The scale of comparison is accurate."

"Why, that bronze isn't as big as Ruth," T'bor said, shooting an apologetic glance at the Benden Weyrleaders.

Wow, today is a lucky day for finding direct book quotes :evil:

[Mayhem]

Yup, 3 times bigger. They had exceeded their parameters by far, most likely due to mutations from excessive inbreeding. I think the maximum size according to Kitti Ping's plan was achieved by the 6th Pass, tops.



Wow, today is a lucky day for finding direct book quotes :evil:
Well done indeed huh!

Who's a clever boy!!!
*Throws a biccie*

:devil:

[Monkeysrule]

I am surprised that they didn't have much of a reation at seeing the real Faranth whose name managed to stick for 2500 years.

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

Yeah me too, after using that name for so long, I'd think they'd go nuts being able to actually see her. I guess it's something like their initial reaction with Aivas... more like "Hmm, this is interesting!" rather than, "OMG what the hell IS that?! Aaaiiiieeeee!!!" :laugh:

[Monkeysrule]

:laugh:

[Anareth]

Yeah me too, after using that name for so long, I'd think they'd go nuts being able to actually see her. I guess it's something like their initial reaction with Aivas... more like "Hmm, this is interesting!" rather than, "OMG what the hell IS that?! Aaaiiiieeeee!!!" :laugh:

At least be a little awed by her. I mean, small or no, that is Faranth, THE queen dragon. Then again, possibly it was, "That's Faranth? She's not big! She's barely a green! Ramoth is so much kewler!" :roll:

[Aurelia]

It must've been so cool for Lessa/F'lar to see their dragons in comparison to the originals.

[Monkeysrule]

They mush have forgotten that Faranth was a real dragon...complete with rider, clutchmates, and a weyrmate of her own.

[Aurelia]

Very true............

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

Yeah, by the 9th Pass she's more like a Deity than memory of a flesh-and-blood dragon.

[Aurelia]

By the Egg of Faranth!-that shows how much they revere her-she was the first fertile queen, so they think of her as the founder of dragonkind and saver of Pern from Thread.

[Kath]

By the Egg of Faranth!-that shows how much they revere her-she was the first fertile queen, so they think of her as the founder of dragonkind and saver of Pern from Thread.


Actually, we don't know whether Faranth was the first to rise or not.

Faranth is remembered for being the original senior queen dragon, as Sorka was the first senior weyrwoman of Fort. This doesn't imply that she was the first queen to rise, as those rules (the next queen to rise determines the weyrleadership) were set in place long after Sean and Sorka's authority had become widely accepted.

[C_ris]

Actually, we don't know whether Faranth was the first to rise or not.

Faranth is remembered for being the original senior queen dragon, as Sorka was the first senior weyrwoman of Fort. This doesn't imply that she was the first queen to rise, as those rules (the next queen to rise determines the weyrleadership) were set in place long after Sean and Sorka's authority had become widely accepted.

And as Faranth was the last queen to hatch, then it is unlikel that she would be the first to rise.

[Kath]

And as Faranth was the last queen to hatch, then it is unlikel that she would be the first to rise.

Not so. Not with the original 18 hatching only over a matter of days. The sexual maturity of dragons isn't a simple linear thing, and is clearly affected by the behaviour and mental attitude of the rider. It could have been any of them, really.

Anyone interested in writing a first flight fanfic? I'm tempted, I admit.

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

Not so. Not with the original 18 hatching only over a matter of days. The sexual maturity of dragons isn't a simple linear thing, and is clearly affected by the behaviour and mental attitude of the rider. It could have been any of them, really.

Anyone interested in writing a first flight fanfic? I'm tempted, I admit.
That would be a BLAST of a story! What fun to have the havoc of these new experiences and possibly the winners clawing over each other right out in the open, not knowing any better to find a more discreet place :evil: And the poor queenriders with the blooding! I'd like to see them actually fail to restrain them, at a total loss on what to do, and they go completely hog-wild... and everyone just gapes in silence, like... what the HELL just happened?! :faint:

[Monkeysrule]

They have firelizards. They know that golds need to blood. And you just got a nasty image in my mind. :crazy:

[Aurelia]

that'd be an awesome fanfic, bronzie. maybe the first original queen to rise would have a really freaked rider, and would gorge, only flying for a couple minutes and clutching 10 dragons, instead of more?

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

They have firelizards. They know that golds need to blood. And you just got a nasty image in my mind. :crazy:
They know they blood, but still, the immense intensity and suddenness of it all would definitely them offguard, the much closer mental bond makes everything EXTREMELY more focused than anything they've known with a fire-lizard. Do fire-lizards have the urge to gorge as well, or do the juck suck out the juices? To me, it seems like dragons have more of a tendancy to want to devour the whole thing.

[Brenda]

I can see the bronzes and browns all blooding their kill, and the riders trying to figure out what is going on...

[Kath]

Mmm.. I'm getting a fanfic outline put together now.

I've got a feeling that flits don't necessarily always blood their kills. Can anyone dig up some cites either way? Possible sources of quotes would be DDawn (Pol and Bay's lizards mate, but I think we just see the aftermath) and Dragondrums (Sebell/Menolly). Do the queens blood?

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

I'm quite certain that in one of the books, (one of the Harper halls?) it describes a flight, and one of the females diving into the water to catch a fish and blood it. I'm positive it's been quoted in one of the threads around here, but I have no idea which.

[C_ris]

Not so. Not with the original 18 hatching only over a matter of days. The sexual maturity of dragons isn't a simple linear thing, and is clearly affected by the behaviour and mental attitude of the rider. It could have been any of them, really.

Anyone interested in writing a first flight fanfic? I'm tempted, I admit.

But there was six or eight or so other queens, all of whom were older than Faranth (even if by simply a few hours), so I stand by my point that it would be less likely that she would be the FIRST to rise.

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

11 original queens. But I suppose it's like a woman's menstrual cycle, the first aren't that predictable. Some reach that level of physical maturity sooner than others, so the latest born could be the first one to reach maturity. Dragons, though it wouldn't be nearly as wide a range as in humans, I'd expect would be the same on a relative scale.

[Mayhem]

I'm quite certain that in one of the books, (one of the Harper halls?) it describes a flight, and one of the females diving into the water to catch a fish and blood it. I'm positive it's been quoted in one of the threads around here, but I have no idea which.
DragonDrums.

It's Sebell's Queen, Kimi, and she didn't blood the fish she ate it.

It describes Sebell feeling as if he could taste the warm salty meat


Sebell, puzzled by her abrupt curiosity(Menolly), identified the fisher as his own Queen Kimi and smiled as she brought the neatly captured yellowtail back to the prow of the ship. Oddly, the others stayed aloft while Kimi tore savagely into the flesh of her still struggling prey.

Sebell wondered why the other three firelizards didn't come to share the feast, but the thought didn't absorb him long. The ferocity with which Kimi ate fascinated him; he felt as if he were somehow involved in tearing the strips, as if he could savour the warm salty flesh in his mouth, as if-

[Aurelia]

what happens if you have a queen/bronze and they fly each other? if you get really caught up sexually when one is flown, how about when they're both yours (like menolly's beauty and poll/rocky/diver)?

[Lady Arwyn]

Um, meet Mr/Mrs Hand, a really, really friendly hand. Or maybe find a partner to help you out...

[Monkeysrule]

Um, meet Mr/Mrs Hand, a really, really friendly hand. Or maybe find a partner to help you out...
:eek:

The unfortunate person probably ends up humping the nearest tree. The same would go if their firelizard flies/gets flown by a wild one.

[Aurelia]

true......i wonder if menolly had to do that when beauty was flown by one of her own bronzes.....she has sebell, though

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

She didn't *always* have Sebell though... but I can't blame Anne for leaving it out, those ARE supposed to be youth's books! :rofl:

[Monkeysrule]

I think it's mostly greens that they mate with, and greens might not have that strong a connection. Now about Beauty rising...:eek:

[Aurelia]

i would like to see what happened if one of the original colonists impressed a queen and a bronze and had never experienced a matign flight before, and how they reacted **rolls over laughing**

[Zei]

i would like to see what happened if one of the original colonists impressed a queen and a bronze and had never experienced a matign flight before, and how they reacted **rolls over laughing**

What does that have to do with the topic at hand? :erm: In any case, weren't they warned about the side-effects first, or was that just a theory?

[Aurelia]

it's a theory....we got a bit off topic, i'll admit....

anyway, my estimate is that the 18 originals were the size of a big clydesdale, then grew bigger...until ramoth, of course!

[Kath]

i would like to see what happened if one of the original colonists impressed a queen and a bronze and had never experienced a matign flight before, and how they reacted

Really?

In that case, re-read Dragonsdawn. The colonists quickly learnt the effects of firelizards mating on their human partners (Bay and Pol found out, and got togetehr because of it). I don't think it would take a particularly agile mind for the colonists to figure out the consequences of two firelizards mating who were impressed to the same human. They'd have spread the news around pretty swiftly, as a public service at the very least, and gossip if not. In fact, they'd probably be more comfortable with the single-human option than with the prospect of getting intimite with an additional person. Human nature being what it is, I doubt many colonists would have a problem figuring out how to deal with the consequences in the most appropriate way - unless they were innocent prepubescents I guess, but even then the colonists would have given their kids decent sex-ed classes.

[Kath]

But there was six or eight or so other queens, all of whom were older than Faranth (even if by simply a few hours), so I stand by my point that it would be less likely that she would be the FIRST to rise.

Here's something that I havn't seen mentioned yet, which I came across in my fanfic research. In _Chronicles_, it's mentioned how much the dragon population has grown, thanks to the original queens and Faranth's first daughter.

So, Faranth is very likely to have clutched the first second-generation queen, although she's no more or less likely than any other queen to have been the first to rise. And while breeding a lot of other greens/blues/browns/bronzes was vital at the time, it was only once the first second generation female proved her genetic viability that the dragon experiment was confirmed as a complete success.

[Aurelia]

Who is the first second generation queen? I remember in CoP that Alaranth is Faranth's daughter, but Anne didn't mention that she was Faranth's first daughter....I found CoP online (the text). I guess I'll reread "The Second Weyr" then.

http://dwalin.ru/books/McCaffrey,%20Anne/Chronicles%20of%20Pern.txt

This is the link to CoP.

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

Hey cool! Thanks :D *saves to favorites* Are there any other of the stories online?

[Kath]

Who is the first second generation queen? I remember in CoP that Alaranth is Faranth's daughter, but Anne didn't mention that she was Faranth's first daughter....I found CoP online (the text). I guess I'll reread "The Second Weyr" then.


I can't find the precise name mentioned, but the phrase is actually in The Ford of Red Hanrahan rather than The Second Weyr.

The Weyr, now housing five hundred and twenty dragons after nine years of enthusiastic breeding by the eleven queens of the first two hatchings and more lately Faranth's first daughter,...


And given that Alaranth rises for the first time at the culmination of The Second Weyr, I think we can quite safely discount her from being responsible for adding to the Fort Weyr population before then. Do please try to think things through before making links like that!


A second point - most fan sites look very disfavourably on copyright theft. If you don't have a problem with it, fine, but you may just want to reconsider bragging about finding such links here.
There's a chance it could be legal, but being based in Russia, I have serious doubts.

[Monkeysrule]

From: Second Weyr, pg. 142, US
Evenath, the first queen that Faranth produced, had lost an eye as well as the use of one wing....
Cheers!

[Kath]

Mmm.. I'm getting a fanfic outline put together now.



...and episode 1 is up!


Plug Plug Plug :evil:

[C_ris]

Here's something that I havn't seen mentioned yet, which I came across in my fanfic research. In _Chronicles_, it's mentioned how much the dragon population has grown, thanks to the original queens and Faranth's first daughter.

So, Faranth is very likely to have clutched the first second-generation queen, although she's no more or less likely than any other queen to have been the first to rise. And while breeding a lot of other greens/blues/browns/bronzes was vital at the time, it was only once the first second generation female proved her genetic viability that the dragon experiment was confirmed as a complete success.

Ah yes, I remember that! (but surely if Faranth laid , then she would have laid greens as wel, which would also be daughters...)

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

Uhm... Ok, I don't mean to be singling you out BB, but what's with the redundancy lately? Monkeysrule just confirmed that same amount of information 3 posts above that... it just gets tiring having multiple posts with the exact same points. :erm:

[Monkeysrule]

Uhm... Ok, I don't mean to be singling you out BB, but what's with the redundancy lately? Monkeysrule just confirmed that same amount of information 3 posts above that... *snippety*
What do you mean by that?

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

Looks like there's been some post deleting :eek:

[Monkeysrule]

Looks like there's been some post deleting :eek:
Who deleted which post? I missed that! :confused:

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

BB deleted the post which I had replied to, it was above my post #60, but I hadn't quoted it.

Looks like we might as well delete all these ones #60 and after as they're totally irrelevant now and nobody else can know what the heck I was talking about :laugh: