dragonriders names

[dae]

ok question why do male dragonriders shorten there name like f'lar but female dragon riders leave there name how it is like lessa :roll:

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

Thats because nearly all dragonriders who fight thread are male, and they need to make the names as short as possible when they're calling out to each other while fighting thread. Whereas gold riders usually stayed behind, (early 9th pass when it was said that queens don't fly) or they used flamethrowers. But anyway, males are much more prominant, so its usually them who have shortened names. I don't know why the few female green riders there were didn't get their names shortened, like Mirrim. It would probably them be M'rim.

[granath]

Probably stems from the fact that Sorka hated the idea of her name being shortened. Not that it could have been easily done (the Gaelic version Sorcha, pronounced "surreca" could have been). Since there were so few females riding dragons, especially after the first pass, they kept their long names as a kind of reverse ostentation status thing.

[Feena_bronze_rider]

That was smart... how did you figure that out?

[Ryuu]

did you notice that 9th Pass Mirrim & Tai didn't shorten their names even though they ride "fighting" dragons?? (Tai, of course, can't be made any shorter--unless you do "T'i" or just "T'" :devil: )

[Feena_bronze_rider]

Mirrim? Menoly's friend Mirrim?

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

Yes that's her.

Perhaps they didn't shorten her name because she was an exception to the rule? I don't know, I pretty much agree with what granath said. I can't remember many other female green riders, there was one in Second Pass from Dragonseye, her name was Debera rider of Morath. Her name wasn't shortened either.

[TamTam]

If you have Chronicles of Pern, take a look at "The Second Weyr."

(There was a thread like this in the old KT, so I knew where to look.)

[Lady Arwyn]

If you have Chronicles of Pern, take a look at "The Second Weyr."

(There was a thread like this in the old KT, so I knew where to look.)

The dragons invented the shortened names, basically slurring the names during threadfighting. Only Torene could hear them (this was when they were talking to each others, not their riders) and told everyone what their "dragon-eleded" names were. Most riders liked it and the eleded names for riders stuck.

At the time, most female names were short, like Amy, Jean, Nora, Julie or shortened from Nyassa to Nya, Jenette to Jen, Torene to Rene so they didn't get eleded. How do you elede a name that's already short or has a natural, already used nickname?

According to Torene, the dragons NEVER slurred Sean or Sorka's names, out of respect, honoring those who led them all.

This respect followed the goldriders, just being a goldrider made you a leader of sorts (any color would obey a gold), but bronzeriders may or may not ever become even a Wingleader. Greens simply stopped Impressing girls.

By the 9th Pass the origional reason for the eleded names was long forgotten. By the time Path Impressed Mirrim it was probably thought that since she was a girl she didn't elede. Tai's name was too short to elede and by the time Danegga Impressed Ptath Mirrim and Tai had solidified the rule "girl rider doesn't elede", making it a gender thing and not an honor for goldriders anymore.

[Feena_bronze_rider]

OH! That happened it DragonDrums.

[BeckyMildan]

Girls on Pern seem to be given much shorter names then men in general. F'lar's real name was Fallarnon, F'nor was Famanoran, and their father was Falloner. All of their names are a mouthfull and it would seem natural to shorten them. Lessa, Mirrim, and Tai on the other hand are easy to say quickly. I don't why in the second pass they eleded the male names and shortened the female names unless it was because girls tended to stay with their own names while boys picked an eleded name (not necessarly their original name). Remember the boy Thomas who choose S'mon much to his father's dismay. That scene gives the impression that riders chose what they would be called at impression.

[Purpura]

If I remember correctly, in the early days of Dragonriders as well in Dragonsdawn, Torene, said that some of the dragons elided names of the riders, for example David Catarel was shortened to D'vid, and Mihall Sean and Sorka's firstborn son was elided to M'hall. I'm thinking that the honorific of shortening their names/choosing what to be called became a tradition possibly after this, even though in the Second Pass some of the riders called the other people by the names they went by before their Impression as in Seanan who was called S'nan...And I guess he was some descendant of Sean and Sorka

[Ravien Coromana]

It was out of necissity, as for the long names, but, The reason why F'lar's is shortend is because of the fact that he wasnt alwys Weyrleader, and so it wwas shortend while he was lower, instead of him being called "leader" like Sean, the first weyrleader.

[granath]

Sean was the only first Weyrleader, and that because Sorka's Faranth happened to be the first to fly of the queens, and since the two were emotionally attached Carenath had an enormous advantage in the odds of catching Faranth.

Dragons started the name shortening tradition, but certainly by the time Thomas picked S'mon as his name, it was the dragonriders who picked their own names, or possibly the Weyr shortening them. Lessa called Keevan by his short name K'van before he realized it was his name. Most weyrbrats probably had long names to make it easier to elide them. (I think T'kil was a mistake by Anne rather than another example of Kylara's arrogance, but I could be wrong.)

[BeckyMildan]

[QUOTE=granath]Sean was the only first Weyrleader, and that because Sorka's Faranth happened to be the first to fly of the queens, and since the two were emotionally attached Carenath had an enormous advantage in the odds of catching Faranth.

Sean was the dragon riders leader right from the start. He and Sorka worked on the program from the beginning. After the dragons hatched the riders grouped together for support and Sean & Sorka were looked to for leadership. When they decided to open additional weyrs Sean didn't want to appoint weyrleaders so he came up with the idea of letting the queens decide. The system stuck. I have often wonder why since it is not really a good way to pick leaders.

[C_ris]

[QUOTE=granath]Sean was the only first Weyrleader, and that because Sorka's Faranth happened to be the first to fly of the queens, and since the two were emotionally attached Carenath had an enormous advantage in the odds of catching Faranth.

Sean was the dragon riders leader right from the start. He and Sorka worked on the program from the beginning. After the dragons hatched the riders grouped together for support and Sean & Sorka were looked to for leadership. When they decided to open additional weyrs Sean didn't want to appoint weyrleaders so he came up with the idea of letting the queens decide. The system stuck. I have often wonder why since it is not really a good way to pick leaders.
but the idea is to improve the breed. the best bronze should catch the queen, and thus pass on the best of the genes.

[BeckyMildan]

but the idea is to improve the breed. the best bronze should catch the queen, and thus pass on the best of the genes.

The best bronze can catch the queen without making the rider weyrleader. The system of picking weyrleaders by which queen rizes first and what bronze catches her has a lot of flaws. Weyrleaders need to be strong leaders and politicians. Not all of them are. Some are stupid, lazy, or even malicious. Poor leadership caused Benden Weyr to become so isolated from the rest of Pern that there was little good communication between them and the Holds and Crafts. Look at all the damage poor leadership caused when T'kul and T'ron went sour.

[Lady Arwyn]

I think the point was to avoid politics within the Weyr. First Sean was trying to avoid accusations of nepotism if he simply appointed the new Weyrleaders at the new Weyrs, but later it kept from having factions within the Weyr. If the Weyrleader or Weyrwoman were decided by vote, then you could easily have what we have in the US, a people bitterly divided, some never really accepting the elected choice. And, as we know, electing a leader often is no more guarantee of a good leader than selecting one by chance. So many people are elected not because they are a good leader, but because they have the right rhetoric and charisma to convince people to vote for them. Imagine if the Weyr got to vote on a leader when Ramoth rose to mate... R'gul would have won hands down (everyone thought F'lar was an alarmist freak), and Pern would have been destroyed.

We also know that the dragon is a reflection of the rider, to some degree (an infant living in the mind of a near-adult would definately be influenced by that adult) so the stronger, smarter, better riders would have stronger, smarter, better dragons.

Usually, but not always.

And then there is the Weyrwoman. Many people are fooled by the word "senior" in the title "senior gold". While to some the idea of having the eldest, and therefore most experienced gold pair as Weyrwoman names sense. But it doesn't. If a Weyrwoman steps down when her gold stops rising and the next oldest took her place, (let's say it's Kylara and Brekke in a Pern when the fight didn't take place) there is only about a decade between them. So Kylara is forced to step down and, say, Prideth continued rising into her 6th decade, a long-breeding gold, and Wirenth stops in her 5th decade, an average to early loss of mating urges, then the Weyr is subject to a second leadership upheaval in just a few years.

A young gold probably rises more often than an older gold, there is a better chance a young gold will be the next to rise, and with a young rider the Weyr would have the stability of a leader for longer periods of time. Unless the Weyrwoman intentionally times her resignation so that her choice of successor is virtually guaranteed. But that doesn't mean the successor is the best choice. How often do we see people choose someone based on friendship/cliqueiness, not suitability?

So, Sean's choice to avoid politics in choosing a Weyrleader and the Weyrwoman was not perfect, but it certaintly isn't the worst, by far. And it seems to have worked for Pern for, oh, 2500 turns.

[Kenzie's Mom]

You know... I really enjoyed reading the posts here. What all of you said, gave us something to think about.. Good opinions!! :bow:

[Mausey]

When a queen and rider choose to retire I think they probably pick a time when a strong queen is due to rise. They can't choose the weyr leader but they can do their best to make sure that at least the queen rider is good. I'm fairly certain Leri choose to retire when she did because she was certain Moretta and Orlith were due to rise.

[Bamy]

it was shortened - to deb'ra if i remeber rightlyYes that's her.

Perhaps they didn't shorten her name because she was an exception to the rule? I don't know, I pretty much agree with what granath said. I can't remember many other female green riders, there was one in Second Pass from Dragonseye, her name was Debera rider of Morath. Her name wasn't shortened either.

[Lady Arwyn]

When a queen and rider choose to retire I think they probably pick a time when a strong queen is due to rise. They can't choose the weyr leader but they can do their best to make sure that at least the queen rider is good. I'm fairly certain Leri choose to retire when she did because she was certain Moretta and Orlith were due to rise.
The question is, how much leeway does a goldrider have to declare her retirement?. The rule is "when a gold fails to rise, the Weyrwoman has to step down".

How long after a gold fails to rise does she have? How can they tell if she is just off-cycle (late), skipping a cycle or if she really has stopped rising forever?

If a gold rises every 10 months during a Pass, do they give her one year to rise again? Or a month? And during an Interval when they only rise ever 5 years or so, do they wait a year, or five years?

How long can a Weyrwoman hold out before they force her to retire? It can't be all her choice, or there are some who would NEVER step down. Imagine again if Kylara lived to a ripe oldage, does anyone really think she would *voluntarily* step down from her position for *anyone*.

I would think it's up to the bronzeriders, or perhaps the other goldriders (although their motives would be suspect). If she doesn't step down on her own soon after the gold's failure to rise, I would think the bronzeriders would declare the next goldflight to be the Weyrleader's flight. Unless the Weyrleader or Weyrwoman have compelling evidence that the Weyrwoman's gold will rise again, they wouldn't have much choice about it. It would be in their best interests as well, but they can't time it so that any one of them would have an advantage as the goldriders might.

[granath]

Good question, Lady Arwyn. My guess is that a smart senior WW would retire when the signs are that her chosen successor's dragon is about to rise. That way she'd have some control of the situation. Of course, not all dragonriders are that smart. It's unfortunate that Moreta didn't go more into the circumstances behind Leri's retirement. Retiring doesn't mean a total loss of power either, at least not if it's a popular WW. Moreta still deferred to Leri in a lot of things as a former WW, although she had been senior for ten Turns.

[BeckyMildan]

I would think that there would be a lot more leeway during the interval then during fall. Also a popular WW would probably be given more time than an uppopular one. Actually, getting a WW to step down is kind of like trying to punish one. How do you go about it? Can you imagine trying to tell Lessa and F'lar that they have to step down because Ramoth hasn't risen in a while when there are only a year or two left of thread. (I don't think anyone would but there will be other older leaders in the same situation.)

[Reyneth]

it was shortened - to deb'ra if i remeber rightly

No, her name was Debera the entire book. Other girls that impressed Greens from the same clutch were Sarra, Grasella, Mesla, Jule, and Angie. No femalerider's names were elided anywhere in Pern history that I remember.

[granath]

At the time, most female names were short, like Amy, Jean, Nora, Julie or shortened from Nyassa to Nya, Jenette to Jen, Torene to Rene so they didn't get eleded. How do you elede a name that's already short or has a natural, already used nickname?

Not elided, but certainly shortened, as Lady Arwyn said. Although even that tradition seems to have been dropped by the 2nd Pass. Debera could easily be called Debra, but she wasn't. Danegga could be Dagga, Kylara Kyra etc, but they aren't.

[Mayhem]

At the time, most female names were short, like Amy, Jean, Nora, Julie or shortened from Nyassa to Nya, Jenette to Jen, Torene to Rene so they didn't get eleded. How do you elede a name that's already short or has a natural, already used nickname?

.
Torene was shortened to T'rene. She said so in Chronicles of Pern.
(Just read it :D )

[Lady Arwyn]

Torene was shortened to T'rene. She said so in Chronicles of Pern.
(Just read it :D )
The *dragons* shortened/slurred everyone's names in threadfighting, except Sean and Sorka. So I would expect that during a threadfight the dragons call Mirrim "M'rim" and Danegga "D'ga", but the point is that it didn't stick with the female riders.

Torene was still called Torene by the *people* (remember, she didn't tell anyone her dragon eleded name), those who chose to go by their dragon-shortened names did so, others would pick a nickname to be called by, and the dragons would go with what the rider chose. So Jenette became Jen, etc.

What the draogns do and what became Weyr convention are two different things. After all, only HADs hear these conversations between dragons, and they don't usually have one around. And I seriously doubt Lessa would waste her time telling everyone what the dragons called them.

[BeckyMildan]

The most interesting thing about the elided names is that the dragons used the rider's name at all. This indicates that they are giving warnings directly to the rider as well as the dragon.

[Lady Arwyn]

The most interesting thing about the elided names is that the dragons used the rider's name at all. This indicates that they are giving warnings directly to the rider as well as the dragon.
Actually, what it says is something like "Hey Brath, tell S'pld to duck, there's a clump coming right at him." None of the other riders ever heard the names, they had to ask Torene what the dragons called them. so they couldn't have been talking to the riders. This was thedragon-to-dragon discussions, the riders didn't even hear their own dragons talking. Dragons seem to have some control over who hears them. If they aren't speaking to the rider, the riders are oblivious.

[BeckyMildan]

I agree that the riders didn't hear their names but why use the rider's name at all. Since the conversation is dragon to dragon wouldn't it be the dragon's name that is slured. Another thing is that everyone is surprised when dragons know the names of people not close to them or their riders. F'nor is surprised when Canth uses Brekke's name.

[Aurelia]

they talk about this in CoP

[Monkeysrule]

Torene was shortened to T'rene. She said so in Chronicles of Pern.
(Just read it :D )
The conversation went something like this (I don't have the book with me so don't quote me on it):
"Are you T'rene?"
"No, but Sevya will be Sev and Jenette Jen. They're sort of short names, anyway."

[Aurelia]

If S'loner had living during Fall, he's probably be Slon, etc.

[Brenda]

Torene wasn't T'rene; the other riders had nicknamed her 'Rene.

I imagine that she eventually slipped and called some of the riders by their elided names, and most of them thought that was pretty cool and decided to adopt it as a tradition.

After all, only HADs hear these conversations between dragonsOnly an HAD could hear conversations between other dragons, but every rider could hear their own dragon call those warnings out. Riders often tell their dragons to pass on a warning - in their hurry they would probably slur the names a little themselves.

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

The conversation went something like this (I don't have the book with me so don't quote me on it):
"Are you T'rene?"
"No, but Sevya will be Sev and Jenette Jen. They're sort of short names, anyway."
Yup, you're correct. I just read that part, so I might as well type in the whole passage ;)

"D'vid and Wieth, N'klas and Petrath--"

"Hold it, Torene. D'vid and N'klas?" Sorka didn't believe her ears.

"Oh, hadn't you heard them? Torene seemed surprised, then added quite casually, "No, I guess you wouldn't have. I hear them all the time during Fall, because it's what the dragons call other riders when they're warning their their dragons to be careful. They're speaking so fast they sort of, well, compress names. So Day-vid has become D'vid, Nicholas Gomez is N'klas, and Fulmar is F'mar."

"Are you T'rene?" Sorka asked, diverted.

The girl thought a moment. "No, but Sevya'll be Sev, and Jenette, Jen. They're sort of fast names anyway. I mentioned it one day after Fall and--" She gave a helpless shrug. "--everyone wanted to know their dragonish name."

"Do they shorten their own, or others?"

"No." Torene shook her head vigorously and flashed Sorka a dazzling smile. "Dragons always know who's being spoken to."

"I see." Sorka tried to appear that she comprehended the distinction.

"We think it's kind of nice to have a dragon nickname. It means they care about each other's riders, too."

"I guess it would. Tell me, how do they shorten Sean?"

Torene shoor her head, bouncing her curls. "They don't. He's always 'Leader,' and I'd say they capitalize the l too." She shot Sorka a sly grin.

"Oh, g'wan with you now."

"No, honest, Sorka, they're always respectful of Sean. And you're always a full 'Sorka.'"

"Are you buttering me up, young woman?"

"Now, why would I do a thing like that?" Torene made her eyes rounder.

Several pages later...

"Did you know dragons elide riders' names?"

"Sometimes, during Fall if it's especially heavy, I've heard Carenath slur a name or two," Sean said, vigorously rubbing himself with the towel. "Why?"

"It seems to have caught on, at least with some of the younger riders."

"No harm in that!"

"I do have it on very good authority that neither your name or mine, are ever slurred."

"I should hope not!"

I suppose that later on, the eliding got so popular and commonplace that even the Weyrleader's name had come to be elided as well, and was no longer seen as disrespectful.

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

And some of the male's names whose were already short, meshed the frist and last name to fit in, Shih Lao became S'lao.

[Monkeysrule]

Yup, you're correct. I just read that part, so I might as well type in the whole passage ;)

You typed that from memory?!:eek: I've read that story goodness knows how many times, and I still wouldn't be able to remember the stuff between the dialogue.
That also confirms that riders can indeed hear their own dragons warning other riders during a Fall.
I suppose that later on, the eliding got so popular and commonplace that even the Weyrleader's name had come to be elided as well, and was no longer seen as disrespectful.
Yeah, and don't forget that their names were probably elided before becoming Weyrleader.

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

You typed that from memory?!:eek: I've read that story goodness knows how many times, and I still wouldn't be able to remember the stuff between the dialogue.
That also confirms that riders can indeed hear their own dragons warning other riders during a Fall.

Yeah, and don't forget that their names were probably elided before becoming Weyrleader.
:rofl2: I WISH! With my sievehead, I'd NEVER be able to quote word for word an entire page! :shriek: I'd just read that part yesterday and was only about 15 pages past it, so it was easy to go back and find. Then I just typed it up looking at the book ;)

[Monkeysrule]

Whew...for a second there I thought you were insane...no wait, you are crazy:laugh:

[Bronze-Dragonrider]

Oh yes, that's a given :D ANYONE who is here is crazy, or becomes crazy after our influence :evil:

[Monkeysrule]

...or is crazy enough to come here in the first place.